Hacker Read top | best | new | newcomments | leaders | about | bookmarklet login

  > What am I getting wrong? 
That in combat, it's never that simple. It seems like that, seems like the enemy has 100% information, or is 100% capable. And it's not (nor are we).

Everything is muddy, nothing is guaranteed to work, the environment is unforgiving, people react differently under stress. We, they, everyone KNOW this and it still doesn't work.

So, you plan, you test contingencies, develop capability, even if they're never used.

In Germany, they had plans to use shopping centers as ad hoc aircraft bases. Knock large holes into the store front (they tend to not be load bearing), shove out all of the shelves and what not with a bulldozer, clear the parking lots of cars and lights (bulldozers work well for this as well). Boom, instant hangar and tarmac.

But that's just it, just warplans. Think tanks thinking through potential problems and ways to solve them. They also had warplans to blow up dams to wash over a teeming Soviet advance. Seems, in the large, to be a bad idea. But, on the other hand, consider the events and thinking going on when someone chimes in "Hey, maybe we should blow up the dams...".

Combat is very messy. No plan survives first contact. Just ask the Russians.



sort by: page size:

> The other thing you learn is that no plan survives contact with the enemy.

Or you learned that decades ago, modeled it for them, and they ran with it.


> Example: every bridge in Europe is 'pre-prepared' for demolition (..) the plans are already done. A combat engineer need only draw the plan for the database and execute one of the options.

You would think. But in reality, these one-off type preparations probably have a actual low chance of going as planned or being executed in a timely manner. The only exceptions being contingencies that are actively, regularly simulated by computer or otherwise. I don't think it'd be surprising to find that, bureaucracy & budgets working the way they do, no one there is simulating demolitions like that (at least not since the 50s or 60s).


> One unforced error lead to another, and that's a lesson that nobody ever seems to learn.

As HR McMaster likes to say, "all wars are the result of a miscalculation"


"A serious problem in planning against American doctrine is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine."

(Attributed to an unnamed Soviet Staff Officer)


> No battle plan survives contact with the enemy

I always (as a Vet) thought this was a misnomer - it's often best described as "no battle plan survives contact with reality" - reality being the new info you get that you didn't get or couldn't have gotten.


'No plan survives contact with the enemy', means you need an adaptable system to succeed. The way you use it though, it's like you are saying 'expect to fail'.

Have you ever tried to plan an invasion? Like, actually done a net assessment of a scenario in detail accounting for terrain, equipment, training, intelligence, logistics, and all the other things that go into a military encounter? It is time-consuming and hard. So is efficiently butchering a hog. So is learning to program well.

Changing diapers and pitching manure? Not so much.

Dying gallantly? Only get to practice that once, so how would you get good at it?

People throw this quote around because it is fun to imagine yourself as a supremely Competent Man in all these domains. Indeed, it makes for excellent fiction—-but it is just that, fiction. When you actually start trying to seriously think about investing in specialized skills like military science, this quote quickly reveals itself to have not made any distinction between life skills that the average person should have and things which require years of study.


A paraphrased translation from Lieutenant General Aksel Frederik Airo from Finland:

  You need to go to shit-ton of schools to be able to make simple decisions. Otherwise you'll start to invent all kinds of over-complicated solutions. 

  Everything in war is simple. The guy in the front lines is the one at war. You can't win in a war unless you give simple orders. The people on top need to be able to give commands that are so simple that even the man in the front lines understands.

  Everything is as simple as possible. To understand that, you need to go study a lot.
It's not easy to do things the simple way, being clever is the easy path. Knowing when you need to be clever and when simple is enough is what separates experience from greenhorns.

"In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable."

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

Simulating the real world is hard.


> No plan survives contact with the enemy. I've also heard a variation like "It is certain that the plan will fail, however, without the plan everything fails."

"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy."

https://www.google.com/search?q=no+battle+plan+survives


> The quote that shows the futility of war games is “No Battle Plan Survives Contact With the Enemy” from German military strategist Helmuth von Moltke

How does that show the futility of war games? War games are one venue in which military leaders develop skill in adapting to the unexpected. The accuracy of von Moltke's quote certainly suggests that planning can't completely substitute for skill in execution, but it doesn't mean that planning is unnecessary or that war gaming is not valuable.


But the comment suggests that some of the vectors of attack were essentially impossible. One could dream up several possible ways to attack a superior force but that doesn't mean they would all actually work.

Agreed, but I would phrase it slightly differently.

Moltke the Elder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_von_Moltke_the_Elder) wrote that to understand military strategy you have to understand two basic things:

- No plan survives contact with the enemy

- Strategy is a system of expedients

In other words, you can make all the plans you want, but as soon as you put them into action they have to take into account the behavior of the enemy, which may or may not go as you predicted. And once events start departing from your predictions, gaps in your plan will appear that you will have to plug with whatever you have at hand, because once shots have been fired you can't un-declare war and start over with a new plan that incorporates what you've learned. You're hip-deep in the muck now, and have to struggle through to the other side as best you can.

Something similar could be said about designing software. If no military plan survives contact with the enemy, no software architecture survives contact with actual users.

The architecture of a particular piece of software is, at root, a hypothesis: given problem X, here is how one could go about applying a defined set of computing resources to solve it. And at the beginning those architectures are always clean, because they're being applied at a purely theoretical level where things we don't really understand about the problem aren't evident yet. And since it's all theoretical, there's no warts; re-drawing the architecture on the whiteboard doesn't inconvenience anyone, so we can do it boldly and often.

But at some point you have to translate that beautiful architecture into working software and put it in front of real people, and that's where the problems start. Because those real people will use the software in ways that surface facets of the problem you didn't appreciate, forcing you to modify it to keep up. And because now making changes means inconveniencing real people and losing actual money instead of just scrubbing off a corner of a whiteboard, those changes will have to be conservative and expedient rather than bold and sweeping. And this is where the warts start creeping in, as you try to drag your original vision into some form that actually fits the real world as quickly and cheaply and non-disruptively as you can.

If the architecture is the hypothesis, the software is the experiment.

And you may think, after running the experiment once, that if you could just start over with a clean sheet of paper armed with what you know now, this time you'd "get it right". But of course the real world isn't static, so by the time you develop a new hypothesis and are ready to run the experiment again, you often find the ground has moved out from under you. Your hypotheses are chasing a moving target, and so the need to patch them up with duct tape and bailing wire never ends.


> Unless you call shell a city to the ground a "plan". And now that is being abandoned.

Shelling cities to the ground is absolutely a plan A tactic.

Armor can't return fire at high azimuthal angles, to move it through a city without risk of ambush, they destroy tall buildings near the route. And to avoid giving away the route ahead of time, they cut multiple routes.


> you should judge a military operation early

what matters is how you adjust vs your mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, even during military operations, because nothing is known in advance.


> "Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."

I guess they learned that from the German army.


The military have a saying:

    No plan survives contact with the enemy.
Seems appropriate.
next

Legal | privacy