I'm Polish. My country is the one whose highest distinction on the international level was being marked by the US for preemptive glassing, to make it more difficult for the Soviets to drive their tanks west.
Which is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand anyway.
That's a mighty stretch you try to construct. Born in Poland, lived in Poland, just had the bad luck for being there during times when soviets cough cough russians were taking whatever want, and terrorizing the rest.
For most Polish people this would be quite an insult even disregarding current war waged by russia just next to them, which is pretty much impossible to ignore if you live there.
I love how both comments make hilariously wrong assumptions about my nationality. What people like you are saying and suggesting is deeply insulting to my ancestors and historical objectivity.
I'm Polish. When I was growing up (in communist Poland) I spent a lot of time around the elderly who experienced the worst from the Soviets and got plenty of first-hand accounts of how uncivilised that nation is.
Have you heard of Katyn, where they murdered our whole intelligentsia and the majority of Polish military officers?
Have you been told about how Soviet soldiers took pleasure in raping the mother before the fathers eyes and their 8 children? Looting and burning the whole farm just for fun, maybe? Did you know about that? Putting whole families on cargo trains to be taken deep into Siberia to be starved and worked to death?
This was not done by a single man.
This happened because Russian nation historically never had problems with aggression and violence towards their neighbours. You can blame it on tyrannical systems of government but at its core its the people.
Tell me you can easily imagine that in this day and age the French or the Brits become a totalitarian country and start invading their neighbours.
We both know this is impossible because of those nations' deeply held values.
Russian mentality is very different from the rest of the Europe and you may not like it but that's the reason why they have always been a bad neighbour.
Some source material for you so you know what we're talking about here. Be warned these are disturbing videos
As a Pole, I see the Soviet Union as badly as Germany.
Sometimes when reading discussions, I think that some westerners forget that the Soviet Union assaulted Poland 17 days after Germans attacked us.
So to remind everyone, Soviets started the whole bloody Second World War!
Not to mention, that after they crashed Poland they killed 22 000 Polish captives by shutting them in the back of their head in an effort to eradicate Polish culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Russians did not fully admit this crime until freaking 2010. These liars were either denying it or blaming this crime on Germans while they had documents clearly stating orders.
They assaulted Poland in 1939, and they were assaulting us in 1944. They were waiting for Warsaw Uprising to fall, they were preventing western forces to help the uprising. Then they proceeded to effectively occupy Poland till 1989.
Even today if we discuss historical events some Russians will tend to get upset that we are not grateful for the sacrifices of the Red Army. But they were not liberating us. They were raping, pillaging and brutally crashing anyone who dared to think.
Putting any moral equality between western participation in World War II and Soviets is just wrong!
We have only found out few years ago, that the official doctrine of the Soviets was to nuke my country(Poland) to hell to make it impossible for any forces from the West to move using the shortest path to Russia. And theoretically we were their allies....so it's 100% of the population compared to 50% in the UK...
I do have some blindspots when it comes to Poland. Would you be willing to elaborate further? From what I could tell, everything was done to prevent Poland from going on nuclear path. Why would that approach change now?
I know they period of history well enough. When Germany invaded Poland, Soviet Union was ally to Germany and no country was interested in helping Poland.
When a country is trying very hard to delete you from existence for hundreds of years it's very hard to not be suspicious of that country. Poland lost 20% of population in WWII started by Germany and Soviet Russia. Every fifth person dead.
You may also notice that Poland and Ukraine are on perfectly friendly terms with Germany. Because Germany came to terms with Nazism and Holocaust.
But Russia never gave up on their imperialism. It wasn't even until 2011 that Russia admitted that Stalin ordered Katyn Massacre despite clear and direct orders in Russian archives.
It's really hundreds of years of Russia trying to subjugate us. Russia partitioned Poland in 1795. We've been subject to forced russification. Despite many brutally crashed uprisings and revolutions we did not regain independence for 123 years. Then after WWI we got almost immediately plunged in war with Soviet Union due to unsettled borders and them wanting to spread communist revolution to the west. Then we got attacked by both Germans and Soviets in 1939. Last Russian soldiers left Poland in 1993.
Behavior of Russian soldiers did not change from WWII till this day. What my grandmother lived trough during WWII is happening now in Ukraine. Senseless killing of civilians and mass rapes of women and children. That's exactly what my grandmother remembers.
It's not a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like telling a women beaten by a husband that she did not make enough attempt at appeasing him.
Even damn Pushkin "To the Slanderers of Russia" from 1831 describes Russian attitude today very well.
Why rave ye, babblers, so — ye lords of popular wonder?
Why such anathemas ‘gainst Russia do you thunder?
What moves your idle rage? Is’t Poland’s fallen pride?
‘T is but Slavonic kin among themselves contending,
An ancient household strife, oft judged but still unending,
A question which, be sure, you never can decide.
Which shall stand fast in such commotion
The haughty Liakh, or faithful Russ?
And shall Slavonic streams meet in a Russian ocean? –
Or il’t dry up? This is point for us.
Leave us!: Your eyes are all unable
To read our history’s bloody table;
Ye’re bold of tongue — but hark, would ye in deed but try it
Or is the hero, now reclined in laurelled quiet,
Too weak to fix once more, Izmail’s red bayonet?
Or hath the Russian Tsar ever, in vain commanded?
Or must we meet all Europe banded?
Have we forgot to conquer yet?
Even what you read in poems like Reduta Ordona from 1832 after November Uprising could very well describe today. Just replace Polish references with Ukrainian:
When Turks beyond the Balkans are threatened by your bronze,
When the Paris legation lick the feet of yours, -
Warsaw alone your power hurls abuse at,
Raises its hand on you and takes off the ‘hat',
The crown of Kazimierz, Chrobry Dynasty of your head,
Because you son of Wasil, have stolen it and with blood stained!
The tsar is surprised - the Petersburg men shiver in fear,
The tsar gets angry - out of fear die his courtiers;
But the armies pour, who's God and faith
The tsar is - angry tsar: we die, we'll amuse him.
I assume this comment was not intended to be taken seriously. Most of the population of what are now independent countries of Belarus and Ukraine, but used to be part of USSR, are pretty well aware of where the Polish border was in 1939. If you visit, it becomes apparent that this fact would be impossible to hide, and no serious efforts to hide it have been made in recent years or earlier. Most towns West of Minsk still bear polish-sounding names and are predominantly catholic while those East of Minsk are orthodox with Russian-sounding names. Many people in western parts of Ukraine and Belarus hold the equivalent of polish green cards issued to them as poles, and everyone is pretty well aware of the reasons, and so on. I don’t know what the modern school books say on the subject (it is true that 30 years ago they began the WWII history with the 1941 events) but there is abundance of information on the subject, including Russian resources, and none of it certainly “gets you killed”.
I think they meant "in the West". Which makes sense: US and UK sold us to Stalin in Jalta, so they had to wipe the memory of Polish participation in WWII (or at least downplay it), so their societies could feel good about themselves.
. Usa did play a big role in liberating eastern Europe from communism and at the same time in Poland we're all aware of brutal reality that a war between west and Russia will leave Poland in ashes.
I know, right. Historical beefs with both Germany and Russia, a history of competent intelligence organizations, a quality military, and obvious current motivations. Yet, every time I bring up Poland as an option, usually I just get ignored.
The time I do get a response, it is usually some story about how only the US has the capability, which is total BS.
Which is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand anyway.
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