You are claiming tens of thousands killed, tortured and raped by Russians, but this data actually contradicts your claim: while there are lots of injured, the death toll is about 9k, half of them killed in Donetsk and Luhansk, which makes it more likely that they were killed by Ukrainian Armed Forces.
And that's ignoring all the casualties in Donetsk and Luhansk before the escalation.
Civilians getting in the crossfire is always a tragedy that each side tries to exploit to their own benefit, acting like they've totally transcended the problem of collateral damage and those other guys are doing it on purpose.
> There are many, many documented cases of russian soldiers raping women and children in Ukraine.
a) The X soldiers raping women (and children!) is a basic dehumanization technique. Serbs did it, Iraqis did it, Russians are doing it, Chinese are doing doing it, Palestine does it. Apparently literally everyone at odds with "western" political block seems to be doing it, which begs for some questions. The matter of sexual violence gets an easy emotional response and and demands very little burden of proof. And then we also have characters like Lyudmila Denisova, who are happy to craft stories like that.
b) You aren't seriously claiming that things you've linked could be held to a standard of "documented"? Hell, one of them is an "intercepted call" (somewhat popular medium to portray those evil orcs, and my god, does that LTE encryption sucks) with a woman literally saying: "so, hubby, how's fucking all those Ukrainian women going on :)))))))" - that totally sounds natural AF.
Not to turn this into a blindly dichotomic argument, war obviously sucks and obviously there are people who are killed, tortured and raped, and each one is one too many. But spinning propaganda and dumbing everything down to a perfect dichotomy of all good vs all evil is only going to make things worse for everyone, especially for ordinary normal people who just want to live in peace.
Just as you do, Russian media also have a shit load of "documented" cases of some evil shit and narratives of grannies having their legs torn off by HIMRAS missiles.
And in both cases, instead of a wakeup call, it's used as an excuse for MOAR weapons, MOAR warfare, MOAR destruction and death.
> If this were true, why did Moscow not simply cull the entire population of Kiev with a thermobaric carpet bombing on day 1?
Because they want to capture the people too.
> Why have civilian deaths so obviously been minimized
I didn’t knowing that lunching anti aircraft carrier weapons at shopping malls was considered “minimising civilian deaths”.
Russia uses civilian deaths as a weapon of war. They also use forced deportation and filtration camps (which are used to torture and kill civilians) as a weapon of war.
Russia in way minimises civilian deaths in fact they try and maximise them.
> When you start from this outrageously false premise, despite an abundance of evidence suggesting other motives, you concede any chance of accurately diagnosing this conflict.
https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM
No one forced Russia to invade, no one forced Russia to rape, no one forced Russia to commit genocide. The decision to do and support these actions lies solely with Russia itself
I’m kinda interested how you explain away the Russian embassy saying that legitimate Ukrainian POW’s should be executed?, war crime, but then again Russia seems to be trying to tick off every war crime it can.
> suppose that shelling civilians doesn’t equate with murder in your book?
No, war = murder hasn’t been a hot take for millennia, but I appreciate your throwing in the HRW link claiming “Russia-backed armed groups in Donetska and Luhanska regions continued to torture, arbitrarily detain, and forcibly disappear civilians” as purported evidence of Ukraine’s war crimes [1].
Sounds like you're saying that Ukrainians somehow provoked this:
- Russian armed forces have shot at civilians attempting to flee
- summary executions, unlawful confinement, torture, ill-treatment, rape and other sexual violence committed in areas occupied by Russian armed forces
- Children have become the victims of the full spectrum of violations investigated by the Commission, including indiscriminate attacks, torture, and rape, suffering the predictable psychological consequences
- Victims range from four to over 80 years old. Perpetrators raped the women and girls in their homes or took them and raped them in unoccupied dwellings. In most cases, these acts also amount to torture and cruel or inhumane treatment for the victims and for relatives who were forced to watch.
I would recommend everyone saying Ukraine should just concede to read this report. Would you give the same advice if this was happening to your country?
>You're pretending the US shot, bombed and killed all those civilians, when in fact that was an Iraqi-on-Iraqi sectarian civil war that produced such high civilian deaths,
Typing this and not realizing the obvious parallels to the Donetsk and Luhensk regions of Ukraine is laughable, and forces me to assume you lack the background necessary to make a real comparison between these two situations.
>Is raping and torturing civilians against the laws of war?
It is, which is why Lyudmila Denisova made up accusations in order to get more weapons for Ukraine. She made the mistake of getting caught doing it and so was fired. No doubt you believe that this was an isolated incident. I dont.
There is a lack of independent observers of war crimes (there are satellite photos of dead bodies, but that in itself doesnt prove war crimes were committed) as well as powerful incentives for Ukraine to lie about this on an industrial scale - Ukrainian military supply lines are utterly dependent on western sympathy not drying up.
>Speaking of facts, how about you start providing your source for this hyperbole claim
It is you sending out a volley non falsifiable claims as an argument that justifies the invasion. You might as well tell me that PG is behind everything, I can't disprove that.
>Ironic claim given the NATO expansion
What aboutism.
>This is the illusion we're being sold
Yeah alright. Please don't bring groupthink and cancel culture into the discussion, it's really not pertinent, you are 1 minute away from going "the west has fallen". And I agree with you that there are many things to improve, to say the least. Still, even if the Western free speech, free market, etc. is all an illusion, Ukrainians have the right to pick that rather than the russkiy mir.
>We need to hold our leaders and ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies
I agree. Raping, torturing, pillaging, genociding, should be unthinkable. Doing that is giving up on being human, imo.
>and we're fine with entire families being wiped out with the push of a button
Who's we?
>not agitate against the "orcs" like they're animals
Who's agitating? It seems to me that Western media has been even too kind to russians. The most terrible deeds that by sheer luck emerge and become public are quickly forgotten.
>anyone paying attention
I guess the only one paying attention is you, not sure what you are paying attention to tho, since you seem unable to state something even just remotely close to the fact that russians are doing something wrong. I wish you and your family will never have to live under the threat of the russkiy mir, but, usually, textbook useful idiots and demoralized people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw&ab_channel=Nicho...) tend to be far away from any danger in this day and age, with somebody else paying the price.
> ...escalating an invasion which now leads to more civilian casualties because of it
Do you have anything that would suggest Russia has retaliated against Ukrainian citizens for an attack they didn't carry out, or is that just conjecture? I fail to see how a disruption of Russian infrastructure by a completely unaffiliated party would somehow lead to them being more capable of attacking Ukrainians, especially when their own government has explicitly asked help on this front[0].
Your comment is borderline incomprehensible, and also violates the site guidelines. You've already garnered a bit of a reputation online, and being so overtly confrontational doesn't do much to clear your image around here.
The civilian casualties in ukraine since 2014 is about 3,000. Not sure where you get tens of thousands.
> But Russia's industrial genocide and concomitant domestic nosedive into totalitarianism is on a completely different level, on a scale that we thought was a relic of the 20th century.
You do realize that far more people died in iraq, afghanistan, etc than will ever die in ukraine right?
That fact that you have to outright lie shows that your position is wrong.
> You have a long history of doing that (and actually we've cut you a lot of slack over the years because you've often represented minority views) and it's particularly unhelpful right now.
Wow, it has been a lot. Thanks I guess?
> I had to ask you not to post comments to HN advocating the horror of collective punishment
Except the 'punishment' I 'advocate' is pretty mild considering the other side in both cases was/are literally killing civilians. I've never been in favour of innocent people being killed. Just hopeful that people who enable atrocities through silence could maybe speak up. If me saying Russians should have to 'stay in Russia' (a country which isn't being invaded) is advocating for some sort of horrible collective punishment, that says something...
You're right though, I should probably ignore obvious (Russian) trolls. Or just avoid social media while a war affecting my mother's country is happening. Also the largest democratic country ever invaded (just saying).
I'll probably just avoid heated topics or this site altogether for awhile (or you can ban). Interacting with those who come up with excuses to justify Ukrainians being killed by an invading power isn't good for my mental health, that's for sure.
> There is a lack of independent observers of war crimes (there are satellite photos of dead bodies, but that in itself doesnt prove war crimes were committed) as well as powerful incentives for Ukraine to lie about this on an industrial scale - Ukrainian military supply lines are utterly dependent on western sympathy not drying up.
The UN recently released a independent report that says they uncovered evidence that Russian soldiers raped and tortured civilians in Ukraine, including children.
> The Commission has documented cases in which children have been raped, tortured, and unlawfully confined. Children have also been killed and injured in indiscriminate attacks with explosive weapons. The exposure to repeated explosions, crimes, forced displacement and separation from family members deeply affected their well-being and mental health.
> It is
So you are in agreement with me Russia commits war crimes, good to know.
> Keep in mind, the 3000 dead you claim are, best as we can tell, fabricated by Putin.
It's impossible to have a rational conversation about this topic when data about civilian casualties provided by the UN[1] is framed as fabricated by Putin without providing even the smallest piece of evidence.
Also, the second article you linked to is arguing about the semantics of the word "genocide". If you want we can argue semantics, but even that seems quite difficult when since 2014 the neo-Nazi Azov battalion has been officially integrated into the Ukranian army. Of course, the article conveniently skips mentioning both the word "Azov" and "nazi".
> It is, and no serious source calls this a genocide...
Again, incorrect. The Ukrainian government has called this genocide. Are they not a serious source? The UN has also had at least one hearing so far to determine if there is genocide happening in Ukraine right now, which, I'll note, the Russians did not show up for. [0]
I'm going to go ahead and stop replying to you at this point. You've made a number of assumptions about my level of engagement and education on the topic that are incorrect, and I don't feel like we are going to get anywhere.
At any rate, insisting that the systematic carpet bombing of cities and murder of fleeing civilians _isn't_ genocide, seems like a questionable hill to die on.
> What do you think happens when you put your military bases in the city and put you forces in residential areas?
This sounds more like what the Russians are doing, but the Russians also commit genocide and force Ukrainians to fight for them via conscription in the Donbas Luhansk regions.
> It doesn't make it wrong though, does it? Truth hurts.
Just because someone writes something doesn't make it true thought? The backlash was harsh because the report was crazy and ignored a number of different people trying to provide feedback and context around what was happening.
> So you just dismiss any facts if they don't align with Western propaganda?
You have yet to establish them as facts, and id be more wary of Russian propaganda than anything else, its a good thing its become so transparent now.
> My question was: I heard claims that Ukraine was murdering Russian-speaking minority in Donbass before the Russian invasion
Define 'minority' in context of Donbas. It's overwhelmingly Russian-speaking.
> and that this was the justification for the invasion.
Well, define 'murdering' then[0]. Both sides would claim the civilian deaths on the opposing side. If you are asking about specific actions of anyone actually murdering people (ie not from the direct circumstances of war) then I can't help you, too much to sift through, though OSCE reports would be the main 3rd-party resource to get this info, especially if you search for 'torture'.
`> Please illuminate me: what have I said that has been debunked?
The fact that they invaded Georgia, during Xi's Olympics no less and did it again in Ukraine during the Winter Olympics, after the West capitulated and the 'separatist' argument was used to justify this abomination [0].
The same was done in '14, and then in '22 to justify it's illegal annexations and war; nothing Russia has done in good faith and their pretext for war is something akin to 17th Century 'well I want it' decree from a monarch, which is what Putin has made himself to be in Russia looting from it's people and then killing them in senseless wars.
People seem to forget that a lot of Ukrainians are actually part Russian, and it's not only the Russian speaking parts either (though now no one will will speak it after this atrocity) which is what makes this genocidal mess even more absurd.
Your Pravda speaking points are like that of the Russian propaganda you'd see on TV that make Russia seem like the victim, when in fact the West was completely fine with Ukraine sliding into insolvency fighting Russia on the East while the EU got cheap gas/oil. It's really messed up, but Purin's inept geopolitical blunder is what made the West unify and finally step up and commit to actually doing something after neglecting the Budapest memorandum.
I cannot say for sure why you are doing this, but it's clear you are either exposed or entirely believe this BS propaganda; this senseless war ends tonight if Russia leaves Ukraine.
They won't, they are far too deep and want the Donbas even if they leave it a smouldering heap like Bauchmut; but if it's true that Wagner troops are returning back to Russia from Belarus after the Kremlin stiffed them on their pay they likely have another coup in their midst, and this is in addition to troops being sent to the front line with no training or equipment pay etc... That is more likely to end the war in my view, it just leaves a horrible power vacum not unlike that of Gadahffi's Libya, or Hussein's Iraq and always leads to chaos.
Honestly, this will be seen by posterity as a 'how to f-up your natural resource rich Nation' 101 by Vladamir Putin; it should be mandatory reading and taught in all schools because this kind of BS shouldn't be tolerated in the 21st Century. It's sad Russians are so easily placated by propaganda into utter apathy--the calls from these people's relatives held as POW is spine chilling, the jaded side of me lets me think it is so bleak that it makes dying in a pointless war almost sensible alternative from their lives in Russia from their perspective.
> Frankly, it's not even worth replying to this disingenuous goalpost-moving and "firehose of falsehoods" tactic. I've linked an informative resource above for anyone interested in factual debate on this topic.
You're not responding because there's no response. The Russians are killing, raping civilians and committing genocide in Ukraine.
There is no reason for Russias war of aggression other then because they want to capture a country that they claim doesn't even exist.
There's insurmountable evidence that the Russians aren't avoiding civilian casualties and that they are using them to inflict a terror campaign on Ukraine as a whole.
There is no goalpost moving, there is only the truth.
I will admit I haven't seen Russia's supporters accuse other people of using the "Firehose of Falsehood" before, but then again it was only a matter of time really as Russia and its supporters accuse others of doing what they/it does.
An awfully convenient attitude to having your claims challenged.
> https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casua...
You are claiming tens of thousands killed, tortured and raped by Russians, but this data actually contradicts your claim: while there are lots of injured, the death toll is about 9k, half of them killed in Donetsk and Luhansk, which makes it more likely that they were killed by Ukrainian Armed Forces.
And that's ignoring all the casualties in Donetsk and Luhansk before the escalation.
Civilians getting in the crossfire is always a tragedy that each side tries to exploit to their own benefit, acting like they've totally transcended the problem of collateral damage and those other guys are doing it on purpose.
> There are many, many documented cases of russian soldiers raping women and children in Ukraine.
a) The X soldiers raping women (and children!) is a basic dehumanization technique. Serbs did it, Iraqis did it, Russians are doing it, Chinese are doing doing it, Palestine does it. Apparently literally everyone at odds with "western" political block seems to be doing it, which begs for some questions. The matter of sexual violence gets an easy emotional response and and demands very little burden of proof. And then we also have characters like Lyudmila Denisova, who are happy to craft stories like that.
b) You aren't seriously claiming that things you've linked could be held to a standard of "documented"? Hell, one of them is an "intercepted call" (somewhat popular medium to portray those evil orcs, and my god, does that LTE encryption sucks) with a woman literally saying: "so, hubby, how's fucking all those Ukrainian women going on :)))))))" - that totally sounds natural AF.
Not to turn this into a blindly dichotomic argument, war obviously sucks and obviously there are people who are killed, tortured and raped, and each one is one too many. But spinning propaganda and dumbing everything down to a perfect dichotomy of all good vs all evil is only going to make things worse for everyone, especially for ordinary normal people who just want to live in peace.
Just as you do, Russian media also have a shit load of "documented" cases of some evil shit and narratives of grannies having their legs torn off by HIMRAS missiles.
And in both cases, instead of a wakeup call, it's used as an excuse for MOAR weapons, MOAR warfare, MOAR destruction and death.
reply