> Honestly a very depressing outlook. If I would really think this way I wouldn’t wanna work in this industry. The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends - I’m still in contact with most of them years after the fact and some became really close friends - this was outside of IT though.
It's important to differentiate between colleagues and the business. The people you work with can become friends, but ultimately the business will do whatever sociopathic thing makes the number go up the faster/helps to deal with the crippling emotional turmoil of the execs.
You can be friends with the people you work with/for, but if there comes a time when the business and the people's interests diverge, the business will normally win. As long as you are aware of this, you can be OK throughout it (sortof, getting laid off really, really sucks).
> I feel you’ve been involved in some exploitative workplaces in the past that have pessimistically shaped your view of business.
I don't think it's a pessimistic view of business. I've always felt this way.
Businesses view people as resources. When resources are in high demand, companies compete for you and thus must try to make/keep you happy. When supply is high and demand is low they can and will make lowball offers and make unreasonable demands like working long hours/weekends/etc.
I've worked for good companies and bad. The bad ones always tried to make you feel guilty for not putting in the extra effort. The good ones make you feel like family. But they're still companies with one core mission: grow and make someone more money.
> Would you stay at a company in whose purpose you don't believe, if you liked your manager?
There are a couple of people on my current project whose company I enjoy and who have personal attributes that I'd like to foster in myself. I'm staying with it solely for that reason, the business model it uses was dead in the water two years ago and it's in the die-off period - the project itself is just making efficiency savings on something that's never going to be profitable again.
I'd choose to do so again, it's never made life bad for me to choose to share closer company with the people I respect - and when the time to move jobs has come up, a few months ahead of the crash, there have always been plenty of friends in other companies that would put in a good word.
What has been a bad call for me has been to stay in bad company, for the chance to work on something 'important' while management has been incompetent or peers have been markedly hostile. That's contributed to some of the lowest times of my life.
> It's pretty easy to see certain coworkers moving into the adopted family category.
I don't see how that can possibly work. Co-workers compete with each other to get promotions/salary increases etc.
If I see an opportunity at work, I won't share/tell to another co-worker, I have no incentive to favor them vs myself.
It does not work like that for my "close and extended family".
The best I can do is to, once in a while, go out and have a beer, but even then I honestly don't really enjoy spending time with my co-workers. Sorry to be brutal, but I just don't care.
Every single time I left a company for a new opportunity, 99% of those co-workers that looked like "friends", they all systematically just vanished.
Then you realize that they just needed you to get things done.
> And honestly, I'm skeptical whether functional adults as a whole enjoy the attempts at fastforwarding the process.
I certainly don't. I'm there to make money, not friends.
I've tried making friends at work before, and it was never worth it. They expect you to be there for them, they're never there for you, and once you've left the company you might as well have never existed to them.
> much of my job satisfaction came from the sense of comradery of working on a team
I think this is a seriously undervalued factor and something I was completely unaware of.
I used to always judge job opportunities either by how well they pay, or how interesting the work is. But in reality, the social factor is just as important.
So some time ago, I was trying to hire my first employee. I paid a lot of money for job ads, and got very little applications. I offered the same salary as the other tech companies in my city, and I really tried my best to attract people.
I couldn't understand why people instead only applied to work for boring consultancies or even for an online gambling company -- why would people prefer such mind numbing or even morally questionable jobs?
I realized that the social situation at work is really important. When I met people who worked at the online gambling website, they weren't talking about the actual work; they just told me about their awesome boss, and how they had fun with their team mates, etc. It didn't matter how interesting my project was, nobody wanted to sit all day in an office just alone with me.
> I have a coworker who passed on a great opportunity just because he really likes working with everyone.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your tone makes me believe you think your coworker made the wrong decision.
I'm actually jealous of your coworker. Currently, if someone offered me a better career opportunity, I'd likely take it without hesitation; but I wish that weren't the case. I don't hate my current position, but I wish I loved it more to the point where leveling up, learning the newest framework, and making more money wasn't the priority.
On top of that, everyone around me seems to be more focused on the trajectory of their life rather than their current situation, so I feel like its hard for me to get out of this rat race mindset.
>An employment relationship is in the end a relationship between people.
I view it as a product sale. Me selling my knowledge and skills, they buying it. Similar to how they sale or rent their software to the customers.
A company is not people, a company doesn't have soul. It solely exist to make shareholders profit. People at the company I will have relationships with, and I try to have good relationships.
I never lie, just tell the story they way I benefit from it.
>what results is both sides having to interact with each other on a daily basis ideally
If I foresee that I might dislike the interaction in the future, I can just move over.
>> On work: it’s difficult to do a great job on work you don’t care about
And even when you do care about it, there's no way you know in advance how it's gonna go on the field. A friend is actually pretty sad about his job because of the company structure and workflow even though the domain is almost spot on what he loves.
> Look at your friends who are miserable in their jobs. Even when they move to a new job they remain miserable.
Quite the opposite for me. I was miserable in my first job. Not a single day where I wanted to go to work. After 4 years I quit and everyone told me that I need to change my attitude, and that all jobs are like this.
They. Were. Completely. Wrong.
I was very happy with my next job.
My 3rd job sucked (for different reasons). I wasn't anywhere near burnout, but my first two jobs taught me one thing: Life is too short to stay at a job that sucked. I moved on to the 4th job which ended up being awesome.
If you're miserable at your job, it may not be you - even if everyone around you thinks it is.
>I can't ditch my clients, my business partners, my friends, my employees. I don't know how to get out. I so furiously pitched my friends to start this company, I brought them ALL into this. I hired everyone, I convinced them to jump ship from their jobs and work with me. If I bail now, every word I said, anything I did, will mean nothing.
I'm in a similar position myself. I don't think this should be a factor in your decision making. They're adults and they made a choice.
You may feel like you let them down, but as I said they're adults, they made a choice. It even sounds like they wont lose their jobs if you quit, and if they're no longer interested in working there without you, they should have time to find other positions. Even if that wasn't the case, it shouldn't be a factor for you.
They may hate you, but they'll get over it.
So, if you need to quit for your mental well being, do it. If you feel it's worth trying other things first, go for it, but there's nothing to be ashamed for here.
My friends and I have no loyalty to our employers at this point. Big or small, we've all been burned. Some places are just less unpleasant than others. My bar is so low that as long as no one is screaming at me or threatening my coworkers I usually call that a good day. Getting out of retail helped.
>Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well).
> I can’t stand the ego trips, wars of attrition, power struggles, insecurities and of course the wrong system of incentives that pits people against each other.
Have you experienced this across a number of different companies? If you have, it's more likely that the problem is with you. If you haven't, consider changing jobs.
I've worked for a handful of employers and I've never experienced what you're describing. Not sure how much of that is because I've been lucky to land on good companies/teams, or I just have a personality that isn't affected by these kinds of things.
> Frankly I'm amazed that there are people who don't see their job as their primary source of misery.
Wow, what a gloomy outlook. Have you really never, ever enjoyed your work or workplace? Your coworkers?
I certainly haven’t enjoyed every job or workplace, but I have a lot of fond memories of many workplaces and teams. I’ve had a lot of fun throughout my career and made some lasting friendships.
I suppose I’m in the opposite mindset: I’m amazed that there are people (in tech) who haven’t ever been able to find enjoyment in their work. We literally grew up to get paid to play on computers all day. There are plenty of opportunities out there to have a good time in this field, but they won’t necessarily fall into your lap.
> People on hacker news are extremely naive at career management. This is all the worst advice I have ever seen in my life.
My friend, the same should be said about your comments.
> Some of the happiest moments in my career came from when I was the only one doing the work. Those moments often ended when peers joined, took over parts of the work then started competing with me.
You are likely an introvert, which in and of itself is not wrong. What is wrong is assuming everyone wants to be an introvert like you.
Humans are highly social animals. When a person gets laid off, they experience the same hormonal and emotional response as losing a loved one or losing a limb. This is bc being laid off form your company is the equivalent of being banished from your tribe, and that means certain death from prehistoric times. Obviously, almost no one dies form being laid off, but that biological programming is still in the human psyche. Point being - the relationship with your tribe (the team you work with) is important.
> I have learned that peers are mostly competition.
You need to change your mindset, my friend. Have you not had the experience of a coworker helping you out when you really needed it? Have you never relied on a community or a tribe?
> I stayed for the money and my loyalty to my team but I hated that place.
Both very common. I used to work at a place that was a real meat grinder. Leadership were ethical enough on big stuff, but didn't really care about their people too much so they worked us to the bone. The team constantly felt like we were in a war together and the only thing keeping us going was us watching each other's back. In reality, our "war" was building some nonsense web sites or whatever for clients that had little practical value. Sometimes you have to step back and say you don't want to be part of it anymore and no one else should feel pressured to stay either.
i go to work to complete an objective and get paid. feelings are personal and not something i care to share with workplace associates or strangers. of course, this means that i'm totally unsuited for any kind of non-technical, customer-facing work. except maybe a bar or restaurant that wants bitchy/sarcastic staff.
i'm sort of lucky that i work it tech, but i'd be pretty happy doing construction or anything that involves doing stuff other than talking to customers.
>It's extremely important that you learn as early as possible in your career that your employer is not your friend. You are only a cog in the wheel to them. All the way up to the top you are replaceable.
This is not universally true. I genuinely care about the people that work for me.
It's important to differentiate between colleagues and the business. The people you work with can become friends, but ultimately the business will do whatever sociopathic thing makes the number go up the faster/helps to deal with the crippling emotional turmoil of the execs.
You can be friends with the people you work with/for, but if there comes a time when the business and the people's interests diverge, the business will normally win. As long as you are aware of this, you can be OK throughout it (sortof, getting laid off really, really sucks).
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