I explain her needs and desires do not necessarily align with his and that she must try to notice his (I describe them like do you hear he is yelling because of XYZ). This is largely futile. Because she notices he yells but doesn't understand why. He's only 3, so he mostly plays parallel (normal for his age).
I also describe the circumstances of the situation. Usually it is before dinnertime. So I explain right before dinner isn't a good time to play together. Because they trigger each other. So it is a good time to play solo and respect each other's boundaries. At that time they're hangry and difficult, so often some drama isn't avoidable.
Unfortunately some triggers cannot be avoided. They have to go bath sometimes, and we settled for once a week. He hates to wash his hair. Our daughter had same, as did I.
I am a divorced father with a 3 years old son. My son does not yell at me nor at any one else (AFAIK).
When he wants something he requests it, and I will usually honor his request unless I see a good reason for not doing so. If that's the case, I will take the time to explain it to him even thou I know that he will not understand everything I say. I think that's important, because it shows commitment to him. My decisions are usually final (for now). This will change when he grows up and becomes able to articulate good arguments on the reasons of what he wants.
He does play with other children. And when he does, he is quite clear on the limits with him. When another children attempts to steal one of his toys he will stand on principle (I really like that he has this personality). He will talk with other children but not yell. If the other child is yelling he will probably ignore him. And he chooses to play with other children who are also calmed.
If he does not do something I want him to do, he will get punished (as part of the feedback loop). It usually involves not looking at his favorite cartoons. If he does something right, he gets a praise.
What is even more interesting is that other people's sons and daughters also behave like that when they are with me. So, it leaves two possible choices:
1. I am somehow special and children behave different around me.
2. Lots of children also behave like my son.
So far, I have chosen option number 2 as my belief. I also think that if you make clear the boundaries for children, they will honor them.
""it does baffle me" that her husband enjoys getting the children so excited, she says. At times, she adds, "I have to leave the room. It's such an intuitive thing, to not want to tolerate the sounds of your kids screaming.""
They tried to over formalize and "other" it with games I've never heard of. I got my kids all wound up and shrieking by playing traditional tag, peekaboo, hide and seek (hide and go boo is way funnier)... and my wife hated it because good luck getting a swarm of screaming little kids to take a bath 5 minutes later or go to bed or pretty much obey anything their mom says until the adrenaline rush wears off.
Once they get older and start playing among themselves, I want to leave the room once they start screaming too, that noise can just be annoying unless you're participating in the game.
Yeah that's a point I've tried keep us from but she's said similar things not in his presence thankfully.
For us we definitely saw a correlation with acting out and timing of him becoming a big brother. He was already going through a phase of acting out and testing limits but when he found out he was going to be a big brother all that behavior escalated a bit and was more frequent.
At this age they are too young to know how to deal with emotions of not being the center of attention. You almost can't reason with them because they don't act rationally and they just don't know how to deal with their emotions. I've been able to break through with him quite a bit by removing him from the escalating situations and talking to him and convincing him I'm trying to help. It's hard, and doesn't always work but when it does he actually calms down and will tell the truth about his feelings - much of which is related to his brother and some of it is us just not understanding his intent on his actions and reacting to something we think is bad.
In my son's case he's already a bit weird and my wife has on more that one occasion suggested he has autism because he won't eat certain foods, doesn't like loud noises, etc. I think he's unique and creative and has a big imagination like all kids do. I'm not interested in diagnosing him and making him a robot. It's tough at times but we take it day by day.
So they get the worst of both worlds because you either didn't want to draw a line on them playing or you get some weird enjoyment in your kid having a shit time?
Weird behaviour honestly
And you'll find that the same "thing" will succeed/fail depending on the parent.
The way our child behaves/reacts with me is very different to how he is with his mother. For example when our child won't sleep at nap-time, or in the evening, I put him in a pram and take him for a walk around the block. It's a horrid solution, but it works about 90% of the time.
When my wife has tried this it has never. once. worked.
(He plays differently with the pair of us, and tries different behaviour. It is kinda fascinating to see the difference - part of that is our relative strictness, but part of it is him I think.)
>But a checklist for defusing tantrums when they happen would be nice
I didn't see if you mentioned ages which is likely a big factor. I only have one kid that's 3.7 but tantrums have been rare for us; probably just different kids and the fact he get's all our attention but here's a couple things we do and mainly it's about preventatively avoiding the triggers to a tantrum situation
1. talk everything out ahead of it happening so it's not a surprise when it happens, remind them repeatedly, and make it positive
2. when I know Mom will be gone and that might be tough, I plan a few things that are different or fun and we only ever do those things during that time so he is actually excited that Mom is leaving (we call it having Dada/[son's name] fun time). I'll talk about these things during #1 and he'll tell Mom about it when she returns
3. just me, but I wouldn't mention ice cream to my kid until afterwards as a reward for the decent behavior (he wouldn't think about the fact he behaved poorly and would just expect ice cream when Mom got home then it would be WW3, I'd have to then stick to my guns because I never cave in to the tantrum)
4. sleep management as discussed, hunger as well
5. we never ignore it. we shut it down and discuss how that behavior is completely unacceptable. we allow the time for him to calm down, have a time out if it went that direction, then we reflect on the event and have a conversation about why [whatever it was] is happening and why their attitude is not acceptable. our kid responds to being talked to like an adult, we just have to break it down and explain the reasoning and he understands it.
6. a majority of our tantrums are due to his sense of something not being fair. Like if we changed our mind on something without fully explaining, or in an undeserving punitive way. So we avoid this. We strive to be fair in our interactions. See the ice cream example in #3 and proactively avoiding a potential moment of perceived inequity.
7. Communicate a lot. Explain your rationale. Don't be a dictator type parent. I think this is common parenting and takes some creativity/patience to never say "because I said so".
This is something my wife and I discuss regularly. I wouldn't say a lot, but it's an ongoing issue we wrestle with.
Part of it is that I think she and I have opposite problems. She really doesn't express anger with our child very much at all, and I tend to get overly angry at times. Both lead to their own significant problems.
Maybe to your second point, part of the dynamic that results is that there's something that needs to be corrected or diverted early on, mildly, and my wife doesn't do that, doesn't establish boundaries or express any anger, and then something escalates from our child. By the time it gets to that point, I feel the need to correct it, which has already gotten out of control, and then I don't know what to do and probably get more angry than I should.
I really don't believe that complete inexpression of anger is good. As the article points out, people do get angry, and everyone does things that make others angry sometimes. Children need to know that and understand that. And I see the consequences of this with my wife and child: even when I have nothing to do with the situation, and don't get angry and stay out of it completely, I see how frustrated and hurt my wife gets by adopting that approach, and the problems that causes.
I think the trick is — and this is where you're kind of threading the needle — is to communicate anger but in a way that's not hurtful or threatening. You want to model being angry but also constructively responding to that anger, like the article is saying, proportionate anger, and so forth.
Parenting is difficult because every child is different and no one is perfect. So advice you hear might not work at all with a particular child, and it's often easier to say than do consistently 100% of the time. On the other hand, I think children are their own beings, and can learn from your mistakes at times as well. I don't mean that dismissively, more as something to keep in mind when you're feeling hard on yourself as a parent.
Yes. Telling the child your own needs and feelings is not enough, you need to ask about and listen intently for the needs and feeling of your child. Only when both you and your child both feel heard and seen will understanding result. And once you have understanding of each other then you both know what to do to take best care of each other. The solutions to the conflict then come by themselves, because you now understand each others needs. This only happens after you've put in the hard work to listen and talk and listen and talk and listen and talk and listen some more...
This is the core of the issue. But its still frustrating to see other children doing the things your child refuses to do or has a meltdown about. Especially simple things that you thought you could take for granted like pushing a baby in a stroller or napping.
He does not yell while playing at all. A part of it is that he sees no need nor utility to yell (or cry) in order to get what he wants from me, so he did not learn that he has to yell to achieve it. I do think that children can be loud sometimes but, if it is too often, I would also look for the way to stop them from yelling, even while playing.
And I do agree on the fact that telling lies to your own son is counter-producing. He will learn that you lie and not take into account what you say.
One of my children has oppositional defiant disorder. (Mom is same)
Since she was a tiny baby should would oppose you just for the sake of it.
From 2-7. Let’s go to park/pool/etc. Instant meltdown. Horse farm probably the sole exception.
Regardless she would have a blast on every outing.
Tried hours of calmness to angry rages and everything in between.
Generally 90 minutes of drama would be needed to before she wore out enough so we could go have fun.
Bed time would leave everyone dripping in sweat.
We’ve reached the point we’re we just tell her to knock it off, then we ignore her until she decides to join in. This usually takes 5-15 minutes. Not playing into it is so far our best strategy.
Other day she wanted us to adopted a Goose. After being told no, she went to the Tent and proceeded to wail for awhile. She the proceeded to slowly move closer and closer to make sure we could hear her wailing. Eventually she went back to playing when she couldn’t get a response.
None of other children are like that. The mom clearly had same as a child and early adult.
i have two boys, 3 and 5. You cannot ignore what they are doing. If one of them starts to something wrong the other one joins so you have a double chance of trouble. And if we are outside and they start to misbehave in public you cannot ignore them. If they start to throw things at objects or people you cannot ignore them. If they start to say things that are not appropriate, you cannot ignore them (they favourite word right now is shit). when they start fighting i cannot ignore it. Im reading those opinions online and cannot at all connect it with what im seeing with my kids.
Being a parent can be super hard. It sounds like your wife could use some down time and space from your son. Please encourage her to go out with a friend, get a pedicure or do something that will fill her cup.
I have a high needs 8 year old. I find there are certain things that always trigger her -- poor sleep, hunger, watching TV/playing video games, too much play with other people. It takes a lot of discipline to keep these in balance, but the effort pays off most of the time.
As far as discipline goes, every child has different needs and every parent has their own style. Most likely there is an underlying cause to the behavior -- be it developmental, physical, emotion -- and as parents we rarely know the true cause.
"Time in" rather than "Time out," reading together, going outside in nature can all be healing.
Hand in Hand Parenting has some good gentle discipline resources. "Raising Your Spirited Child" or "The Highly Sensitive Child" may be good resource to assess your son's temperament.
The "Your X-Year Old" series of books is often a good measuring stick to figure out age expected behaviors.
Time ins, punishment, rewards, etc are all linked to short term wins -- not long term success. "Unconditional Parenting" is one of my favorite books on the subject.
Finally, if this is a new behavior, it is possible there was an outside catalyst -- not what a parent wants to think about. Do work on giving your son tools to communicate -- words, drawings, a good understanding of his biology (age appropriate). Having a neutral professional he can talk to is helpful as well.
Good luck -- what a lucky son to have a father so humble as to ask for help.
One thing you could try if you haven't yet is share your issue with your son and try negotiating a set of rules that could be okay for both of you.
There are two prerequisites. First, you did not mention how old he is but I can only hope he is older than six-seven years. A younger child has close to no chance understanding that you might see the world differently than him.
After five years, children's cognitive capabilities typically reach a maturity level that allows them to understand false beliefs, aka the concept that person X could experience the world differently than person Y (if you are interested in developmental psychology, look for the "sally-anne test"). Without this cognitive capability, your only option is to be patient, give him as much love as you can, and take time for you when you feel you are becoming overwhelmed.
The second prerequisite is to "reach" your son at a moment he can mentally ingest this information and is not solely focused on satisfying his needs. Typically, you should not try entering this negotiation during or right after a "talkative episode." Something in the likes of: "Daddy needs to have a conversation with you, but you will need to sit a listen to what I say for some time. I understand you have many questions to ask so I will let you tell me when it is a good time to have this discussion."
When you have this discussion, I would recommend using a negotiated problem solving scheme:
1. "I would like to share something I feel about us, are you okay with that?"
2. "When you do X, I feel Y and Z. It is doing that and this, and it is very difficult for me. Sometimes this makes me do X and Y, and I don't like to do this and I am also quite sure you don't like when I do that. Do you agree? Do you feel these moments?"
3. "I would like us to find a set of rules we can follow to avoid overwhelming each other. I don't want you to stop asking me questions at all, this is not what I am asking. I love you very much and sometimes I am worried that when I am tired or stressed I could not give you all my attention. Do you have any ideas how we could do that together?"
4. "How should I let you know I need some recharge myself?"
5. "How should you let me know you feel the need to share things with me?"
etc.
Of course, chances that this will work the first time are close to zero, so adapt your hopes. You are the adult, the responsibility falls upon you to find the patience and dedication to bring you both to a better place. Also, aim low during your negotiation: remember that your objective is to make things better, not perfect, and advancing one step is always better than nothing.
Like someone recommended above, your son might need professional help but don't underestimate the fact that you need help, too and probably more than he needs help. A child usually needs parents to show him/her unconditional love and to show up, not much more. It is very likely that you are being challenged to find resources deep in yourself that you may not know how to reach. If you are not feeling actively supported by your closer ones (e.g. spouse, friends), I would advise seeking support from a professional or a local support group. You need to be at your 100% when you are with your son and it is your responsibility to take the necessary steps to achieve this state of mind.
Anyway, I root for you and the simple fact that you shared your experience already shows you are doing the extra mile to find answers. I am convinced you will find them, good luck :)
Anecdote time: every time me and my wife have been busy and not had enough fun family time for a couple of days, my 2 year old starts breaking things and having tantrums. Sure, small kid, small problems, but actually spending time with him is waaay more productive than getting angry. It becomes a positive spiral.
Sure, i am tired and stressed out sometimes and that makes actually being above thinking he's just a shit kid very hard.
> In a calm voice I would ask her questions about what she is doing, and those around her.
Would you mind to elaborate and give concrete examples?
In day care we have a 2y old child (younger brother to a 3.5y old) that bites (hard), scratches and hits other kids when it does not get its way. This goes on for over a year now. The parents dont seem to know how to cope and just shrug it off as "he is just wild, thats what kids do in this age".
The other day i could witness myself how he was hitting an older kid with a sound wood full force on the head (because the other kid did not want to give away his toy). The other kid started crying and he had this evil grin, knowing full well he hurt the other kid.
> We have tried everything and he’s old enough but won’t stop crying.
Going by the article and experience, it sounds like you see it as a problem that needs fixing, which means you're probably not being supportive when he does cry, and don't have or want a very intimate relationship with him. Children need care from their parents, even too much of it to the point where it annoys them! Knowing they can rely on the safety of their parents gives them confidence to take greater risks.
I notice when I really play with my niece and nephew, they completely flip out. I mean committing to voices, characters, set-pieces and scenarios, etc.
Do parents do this for extended periods? I notice my brother and his wife being far more disciplinarian and continually trying to calm them. I understand that, but does anybody go the other way and try and encourage more of the chaos and imagination?
I explain her needs and desires do not necessarily align with his and that she must try to notice his (I describe them like do you hear he is yelling because of XYZ). This is largely futile. Because she notices he yells but doesn't understand why. He's only 3, so he mostly plays parallel (normal for his age).
I also describe the circumstances of the situation. Usually it is before dinnertime. So I explain right before dinner isn't a good time to play together. Because they trigger each other. So it is a good time to play solo and respect each other's boundaries. At that time they're hangry and difficult, so often some drama isn't avoidable.
Unfortunately some triggers cannot be avoided. They have to go bath sometimes, and we settled for once a week. He hates to wash his hair. Our daughter had same, as did I.
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