I was watching the protests live in western media and have been following this since the beginning. I don't take my information from anyone but what I see and my own conclusions from the facts.
> If you believe russia is on the good side you need to be checked in
I don't believe one side is the good side, like I mentioned the world is run by psychopaths and I refuse to pick a side. That's the entire problem today, everyone picks a side and sees the opposition as enemies or as the GP said "orcs". The world is more complicated than that.
> Ukrainians have a right to decide if they want to be part of the russkiy mir or if they want to be independent
They did, in an election, which started the Euromaidan and everything went to shit. Tymoshenko was against the deal for the Russian Crimea fleet long before that and she instigated her followers to take to the streets. This is called democracy from "our" side, coup if it's the opponent. I'm 100% sure the US would annex their bases in a similar situation.
Telling that you think the choice is Russia or independence. It's a choice between east and west, the situation is about the fleet in Crimea. Why do you think Erdogan can piss in all directions at once? The Bosporus.
I'm not saying anything going on in the world is okay but you're fooling yourself if you don't think we have a part in this. We want the east poor and in chaos, we were fine with Saddam killing the kurds, but leave the petrodollar? Oh no you don't!
It's easier to call what I say propaganda or misinfirmation, but they're facts. Read up on everything from sources you trust and you should come to the same conclusions. Nothing I say is even far fetched, the US is the self-appointed world police and this has been going on for decades, centuries if you think of the west. Some people just have to run the world and don't want to share.
>I wish for the status quo and peace between China and Taiwan for as long as is practically possible.
Literally the only reason there is tension is because US is interfering in internal affairs of a country half way across the world from it.
Finally, what Russia is doing in Ukraine is literally modelled on what US and NATO did in Yugoslavia. Following the exact same rationale. NATO recognized the independence of the separatist regions and then had them invite NATO to assist them militarily. This is precisely what Russia did. NATO literally established the precedent here.
It is not a binary world. You absolutely do not have to support the Western interference in Ukrainian politics. You do not have to support Putin either.
This is not good vs bad.
It is great powers exploiting weaker countries.
Russia too did interfere a lot in Ukrainian politics, with methods similar to Western.
It's like people live in a paradigm "West good/Russia bad" or "West bad/Russia good", yet miss the real picture - "West bad/Russia bad".
At this point I can't sincerely pick any side as the good guys. On one hand, I'm already sick of cookie-cutter "color revolutions" where "nonviolent" protestors oh-so-conveniently invite the support of Western nuclear superpowers to topple regimes unfavorable to the latter. On the other hand, I'm already sick of the only offered alternative, the emerging "multipolar world" fraternity of Ahmadinejad, Putin, Chavez et al.
I kind of envy you Westerners. You have a simple moral principle that tells you which side to pick, a never-failing axiom: democracy is always best. But the recent history of my country (Russia) has given me a huge and readily observable data point against your axiom. So I can't honestly share your faith, even though I'd like to.
Blaming West is overthinking the situation IMHO. The most simple explanation is that Russia is controlled by corrupt hierarchy with psycho on top of it. The psycho feels nostalgia for imperialism and soviet era. The psycho values hectares of land over the lives of peaceful civilians.
NATO and the EU kept expanding, even though Russia has made its objections many times over, explicitly stating their red lines. Instead of using diplomacy the west just ignored Russia. So the west and particularly the EU and NATO being on the right moral side, I find that questionable. And just as the Russians live in a media bubble, so are we. The war is, here in the west, being portrayed as a very simple thing, Russia bad, west good, Russian imperialism, west defending democracy and liberty. And we humans love simple scenarios like this, black and white. However if you read through the history of Ukraine, EU, NATO and its relationship with Russia you'll notice it's not black and white, it's grey all the way through.
There are no winners here. This is a major setback for the west and Russia regardless of the outcome and who fired the first bullet.
At this point, my opinion is that Putin miscalculated, no one predicted the European reaction, the West has opportunity for better long-term outcomes, and there is little that the West will do to minimize the suffering in Ukraine at the current point in time. The West is not ready to engage in all out warfare with Russia. Whether the West will lean into this opportunity remains to be seen.
Right now, I'm spending time gaining as many points of view as possible to gain understanding where I lack it. But it is obvious that there are many very different world views between the countries of the world and the generations of citizens in each.
Nah. There is one side. Two collectives competing over influence and sovereignty. The West, advocating for everyone has their lines and we're good, and Russia now going imperialist/expansionist.
NAP. Don't start nothing, won't be nothing.
Russia started something. There is now something. Failure to respond and restore the equilibrium is tacit acceptance of Russia setting terms, which sets a precedent.
One big difference with living in the west is that I can read your post, and the GP. I can "take in the truth" and I can (and do) go further and read other, more credible sources and come to the conclusion that the worlds history is not black and white. The US is certainly not an innocent player. And then I can read Putin's own words and I can read Dugin and come to the conclusion that Russia is 100% at fault for the current situation in Ukraine. I might be wrong in this judgement, but at least I won't go to jail for expressing it.
It hurts to read the prevailing opinion in the western sphere these days, Fukuyama and comments here included. HN was mostly logical and rational in the past, but lately (Cov-19 and Russia) it is outright one sided.
Are you aware that the USA and its "allies" have orchestrated a Coup d'etat in Ukraine? Are you aware of the "F*ck EU" phone call in which Nuland moves people in Ukrainian politics like peons on the chessboard? Are you aware of real Nazis being part of government and security aparatus in Ukraine? Are you aware of Odessa, where dozens of pro-Russian people were burned alive by those same Nazis? Are you aware that Zelensky threatened to make atomic weapons at the Munich Security Conference mid February 2022? Are you aware of the complicity of Biden and his family in this (Hunter and his board seat at Burisma), not to speak of VP Biden blackmailing Ukrainians to fire their attorney general for probing Burisma or they'd get no money from (I think) MMF?
This is just a small selection of past events, not to mention new ones.
All this is not an isolated, Russia/Ukraine (both predominantly Orthodox Christian), issue. The collective West is causing death and destruction in the Muslim world for at least 30 years, as well. Furthermore, Snowden and Wikileaks documents have revealed a part of corruption in the US political and intelligence system. And there was no war waged by the West that wasn't supported by the Western media. Speaking of Fukuyama: He is a neocon, part of the cabal whose ideology has caused millions of dead and displaced people, their property destroyed. Their ideology has immensely weakened the US with meaningless and costly wars. And you still listen to him instead to shun him.
You look ridiculous to the World Outside of the West (~6 billion people) with your "we stand with Ukraine", with how you cancel and sanction everything Russian, how you moralize. Business model of the West for centuries is robbery and enslavement, who rises against it gets bombs on his head (hint: that are those in the World Outside the West). USA is literally built on the genocide of the Natives and the susequent landgrab! That West led by that USA is now condemning Russia for not wanting Nazis with nuclear weapons at her doorstep - imagine that!
Do you really don't get all this or do you act out of pure self interest (Russia is a too rich country to have all those riches/resources only for itself)?
The problem is not that people in the West are not listening to both sides. A lot of people still have a very selective attention to what russia says. Specifically, people choose to ignore Putin's outright hitlerian speech at the start of the war, people choose to ignore prominent russian media personalities calling for ethnic cleansing in Ukraine. Just recently a horrible video of Wagner troops beheading a Ukrainian POW surfaced and Skabeeva in prime time said something to the effect "this is what should happen to all Ukrainians".
Instead, in some Chomskian myopia there is a considerable number of people in Europe and USA spreading FUD and reducing their opinion to "war is bad (sad emoji face) Ukraine shouldn't do war".
I despise this western-centric view- were only the people in the west are real people, that can make decisions for themselves, and the rest is just pawns for playing a funny great board game.
The idea that even a new-born nation, could walk out of the board game and do its own thing is so outrageous to the players, it is not even considered.
Well, ukraine just tried that. Its a sovereign nation, and it wanted nothing to do with its imperialistic neighbourhood. And all the zhars horse and all the zhars man, could not hold all its conquered ethnicities in again and again, cause technology now favors david instead of goliath.
So ukraine might not walk this time, but others will, until this ball of muddy-power dissolves one last and final time. Russia, this unreformable assembly of thiefdoms, is stumbling like a feverish plague victime towards the end of its story and it will not be pretty. To blame this corrosion on the west, is pompous victim blaming.
Russia is also falling apart near the chinese border, were large parts of the economy are now owned by chinese state owned companies. Its just a failed state and to the man with glass-bones-disease even a friendly handshake is a attack.
I'm not so sure that's true. The logic of both left and right people I've talked to is something like: Western elites are terrible, Ukraine colluded with those elites/is their puppet (wanted to join Nato/EU/etc), Russia is opposed to Western elites, and is therefore a positive force. I've talked to many people of both political persuasions and they try to minimize Russian wrongdoing and emphasize Western provocation (poking the bear).
Of course, they have different reasons for disliking western elites, but their arguments end up remarkably similar.
Are you trying to argue with me? Because I haven't made any argument for or against Russia or the West in my post. I just pointed out that facts can be interpreted in different ways. That shouldn't prevent anyone from taking a stand, but it's important to know how "the truth" works.
before everyone comes out with their russia hate here's old leaks of emails from the udar party[1].
a lot of people predicted that meddling with ukraine would lead to another split state, and that is precisely what we see unfolding.
it doesn't matter whether the west is right, or whether russia is right. the immense complacency that has grown in european, and us leadership with total disregard of russias interests is what brought the situation to the situation we have right now. when we do things it's justified. when others do them they're wrong.
what puzzles me, is that we're supposed to be on hacker news. people that decompose, and extend other people's works on a day to day basis sit here, and comment how it's "obviously" wrong to think putin is right. wait what? normally there is a bunch of people criticizing lack of objectivity or critical thought, but when it comes to territorial right, and sexism there is only one way. and what others say is dismissed as propaganda.
the group that made a political coup in the ukraine with the support of the west, to overthrow an elected leader - whether we like him or not is irrelevant -, directly, or indirectly(with money, threat of sanctions, threat of no economic cooperation), has now unanimously voted for creating a national guard to fight terrorists[2]. the terrorists? what?
heres a map of crimea[4]. have you ever thought about geopolitics? did you really think russia would completely distance itself from the situation? we didn't. we kept fueling the conflict. what on earth makes you think we're entitled to more than russia? what on earth made you think that russia wouldn't take advantage of it's influence like we took on ours?
according to a german politician the words the founder of the svoboda party were this: "Grab the guns, fight the Russian pigs, the Germans, the Jews pigs and others"(sadly, i am not entirely sure what the sources of his speech are, if you understand german you can listen to the speech here, he's been blasting both russia, AND the western leadership[3]).
the leader of the anti government riots is now the Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine. his deputy is the right sector leader yarosh.
I don't really care whether your think the current ukrainian government has legitimacy or not. that is your personal opinion, and may or may not be right. it's not really for me to judge. but completely disregarding the facts, and calling everyone that is not of your opinion a propagandatist or someone fed by russian propaganda is disgusting.
is that really the level we are discussing things on?
It's much simpler. People in Ukraine, and everwhere in Eastern Europe compare the future that Russia offers them, and the future the West offers them. I'm sure some are swayed by high minded theoretical ideas, but not many.
They choose the West. We all know why. Money you could say, but it's more something like "a better life". And yes, the Holodomor is part of this. That came from the east. Something else starting with "Holo" also came, but from the West.
But if Maidan proved anything, it's that the West offers Ukrane a better life, in the mind of Ukranians, a better Future. It's not really about history. And, of course, this government will not let that go.
You can say the same about everyone from Estonia to, really, even Turkey (I mean, at this point they're seriously insulted by the West ... but not nearly insulted enough to choose Russia's side).
And Russia is afraid. They're "locked in" with impossible to defend borders. They're not friends with the West ... and they're not quite insane enough to imagine China is their friend either. So the idea that Putin initially defended, that without a "buffer zone": countries that will fight or at least obstruct the west, Russia cannot avoid losing large amounts of territory very quickly if it comes to an open conflict, from either side. And they cannot really project power over the sea, without approval from either Europe or China either (or if the Arctic melts, with US agreement). They're fucked, or at least, you have to admit there's a logic there.
Well I just don't understand. I mean you're literally undermining your own point.
The west was incredibly patient with Russia when they annexed Crimea and started a civil war in Ukraine(10 000 dead before this invasion), even as they blew up civilian passenger planes and committed terrorist poison attacks on foreign soil, poisoned their own politicians, built up their police state.
Putin explicitly said he was not going to invade Ukraine.
Why on earth would anyone believe a word out of this mouth after this invasion?
How is negotiating in good faith with such a regime rational?
Intelligent discussion? That was supposed to come BEFORE the invasion, the only thing that matters now is to kick Russians out of Ukraine.
The genie of war is out of the bottle. The Russian people have blood oh their hands.
Quit making assumptions. I live in the West, I am against the Russian invasion and I want to see Putin hanging upside down on the Red Square.
Where in my comment am I blaming anyone? Tone down the paranoia.
Russia invaded, the West can't help Ukraine without causing WW3, so they're by sending all they can to the Ukrainian people, praying they win and Putin kills himself or someone does it for him. This is called a proxy war. I can understand it might be a bit hard to categorize as such, but there is no blame anywhere.
It doesn't matter if the West is on the wrong moral side in some conflicts as you mention because it is clearly on the right moral side regarding Ukraine. Nothing gives Russia the right to wage a war of aggression.
You seem to indicate that just because Russia is threatening Total War, they have the right to conquer Ukraine. They don't! The quicker the world steps up to stop an aggressor like Putin, the less people will die.
> If you believe russia is on the good side you need to be checked in
I don't believe one side is the good side, like I mentioned the world is run by psychopaths and I refuse to pick a side. That's the entire problem today, everyone picks a side and sees the opposition as enemies or as the GP said "orcs". The world is more complicated than that.
> Ukrainians have a right to decide if they want to be part of the russkiy mir or if they want to be independent
They did, in an election, which started the Euromaidan and everything went to shit. Tymoshenko was against the deal for the Russian Crimea fleet long before that and she instigated her followers to take to the streets. This is called democracy from "our" side, coup if it's the opponent. I'm 100% sure the US would annex their bases in a similar situation.
Telling that you think the choice is Russia or independence. It's a choice between east and west, the situation is about the fleet in Crimea. Why do you think Erdogan can piss in all directions at once? The Bosporus.
I'm not saying anything going on in the world is okay but you're fooling yourself if you don't think we have a part in this. We want the east poor and in chaos, we were fine with Saddam killing the kurds, but leave the petrodollar? Oh no you don't!
It's easier to call what I say propaganda or misinfirmation, but they're facts. Read up on everything from sources you trust and you should come to the same conclusions. Nothing I say is even far fetched, the US is the self-appointed world police and this has been going on for decades, centuries if you think of the west. Some people just have to run the world and don't want to share.
reply