>>Preferably, I would like to hire senior developers instead, but they are too expensive for my budget.
It sounds like you're trying to hire cheap developers, not junior developers.
If you really want junior developers, you have to do a crazy thing; hire people that are actually junior (have very little experience) but have potential. If you'd done that 4 months ago you'd probably have some decent developers right now.
> > I’d argue that you’re way better off hiring 6 devs that can go from business problem -> technical solution in their head, without all the ceremony, instead of 40 devs who can’t and 6 PMs to wrangle them.
> The problem is that finding those 6 experienced devs is _HARD_. And they're usually very expensive and know their value.
It's harder than finding uncaring juniors, sure.
But if you need 40+6 people, or 6 experienced people, that's nearly 8x salary.
In silicon valley money, you'll need to pay those uncaring juniors about 150K.
I guarantee you that you can very easily find those 6 experienced people in a few weeks if you're offering over $1M/yr to them. In a month you can staff all 6 positions.
If you're saying you want ~8x performance but not interested in paying ~8x salary.. then yes, it's harder to find the people.
> Besides, highly productive developers are in very high demand. You're just shooting yourself in the foot if you don't give them a fair deal, because they'll go somewhere else
Ok, but "we expect you to work full time when we hire you for a full time job" is a fair deal. It is not "unfair" to hire people full time rather than part time.
> Admittedly, I have no clue if the management realises that !
Well, that's the key thing in many places: it's management that decides whether to hire and how much to offer, not you :)
The first instinct would be to put 'resources' that costs little into a project, and that usually means people with less experience that requires less pay and are easier to drag around. Imagine the difficulty they will be having trying to grok your line of reasoning for respecting and going after these older devs.
>"they can actually hire five young developers for the price of one senior dev"
I'm sure your dad's experience warrants a premium over others but anybody asking 5x what other devs make are going to have difficulty finding a job unless they have exceptional reputation, contacts and some luck.
>> Preferably, I would like to hire senior developers instead, but they are too expensive for my budget.
I think you will find you will save money in the long run if you hire senior developers if you actually do require senior-level development skills instead of expecting junior developers to do the same work for lower pay.
> Yes. They hire devs from the Midwest instead of major metro areas.
Which is great, IMO. It's time we opened the doors to more talented developers across the country rather than requiring everyone to move to a few big cities to get the best jobs.
Yes, compensation will come down relative to those big cities, but it will still be coming up for those devs outside of major metro areas (otherwise they wouldn't be taking the jobs, obviously)
I've encountered this argument in real life. I agree it sounds a lot like a straw man though and doesn't help much with my argument -- thanks.
And I agree that it is more expensive to hire this way because of how diverse CS graduates are. Do you think it might be worth it in order to help nudge the industry at large in a more positive direction?
If that's the question -- the answer is simple. I have worked at places that want the best developers we can find. So we paid market salary+benefits. We wanted entry-level and experts, and so paid them according to their value.
You want top 10%, then pay top 10%. If you can't afford it -- that's ok -- find someone who is not as good and train them. If they become top 10%, pay them more. Oh -- and charge enough for the work they do so that you don't worry about it.
> I will either need to hire a temp which is more difficult than to hire for full time position
We're still talking about programmers, right? Because it is way easier to hire a part-time contract programmer, than it is to hire a full-time programmer. If anything, the best devs are often already freelancing/consulting anyway, and would prefer you hire them this way.
I think the point is to bring in as much cheap[er] labor as possible. I mean, obviously people have been managing to cope with complex languages in complex multi-hundred and multi-million lines of code for decades, but now, with the startup craze, there is a need for a vast amount of developer force, that may not be as capable as before. When people go into the business for money reasons alone, things get bleak. I think that concept is for these people. And I get it, money is important! But I think there should be at least some passion there there too, and that's not just for software development, but for most walks of life.
It absolutely is that bad. If you've not had a shitload of experiences like this, you've been very lucky or very sheltered by an unusual selection of target companies.
On the other hand, I totally agree that being a developer is a very cool job. It's totally worth it, but the hiring process sucks and only seems to be getting worse.
> The process is a 2-way negotiation between equal parties.
This is the only statement in your comment I take issue with. The company has access to all kinds of local, regional, and national salary data, as well as a holistic idea of the kind of candidates they're getting. If it's a large company, they have people whose only job is negotiation (especially around salary).
It's a decidedly unequal negotiation, that sometimes works in our favor (as in when we can get multiple offers to arrive at one time to bid up our pay).
The only reason it's as equal as it is is due to demand for hiring. Most other industries you take what you can get. Let's enjoy it while it lasts. Given the proliferation of "learn to code", outsourcing, insourcing, and other attempts to widen the number of qualified developers, I'm not sure how long this gravy train will continue to last.
I've actually found that not always true. In order to acquire talent, the very large corporation I work for has been hiring younger developers at higher wage levels to compete.
... if you want to hire a bunch of fresh, young developers.
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