I think the linux kernel developement is quite open. But Linus is famous for telling people directly in not so nice words, that they are not helping.
I don't think insults are the solution, but giving a clear no, is a skill many people struggle with. And if some cannot cope with that, blocking individuals also works.
Hypothetically (I'm not a kernel developer) how is someone on the receiving end of Linus's text/verbal abuse supposed to feel?
Does Linus just assume that people don't take it personally? Is this his way of establishing a "barrier to entry" for kernel developers?
I'm pretty sure that in any case, abuse is toxic... I'm sure that it isn't good for the soul of either the person on the giving end or receiving end. I don't really think Linus is justified - it isn't just about being polite - it is about having respect for fellow human beings and what they bring to the table.
Well, there are ways to make a point and emphasizing an idea without resorting to swearing. The Linux kernel project has lost some maintainers because of this.
Now to be fair, one merit of Linus is that he is direct and says he doesn't like something, and not weasel language like "maybe later" or other time-wasting expressions that force people to guess what he is thinking.
Linus is one of the nicest people you'll ever see. He's just a massive troll/flamethrower when it comes to online discussions. He acknowledges so himself. I don't mind it, Linux is his baby and if you don't like interacting with him you can just fork it and go your own way. Nothing stopping you.
I think nobody takes Linus's insults at face value anymore. I'd actually laugh my ass off if I was a kernel developer and got told off by Linus.
I think we need to remember that the words and the intent of the words are two different things. If he's just given to rudeness and profanity, that in and of itself is not a big deal. There are plenty of very abrasive people who do good work and aren't trying to hurt anyone. If Linus was out to actually harm people - maybe he is, I don't know - that would be a problem IMO.
He's absolutely correct that everyone doesn't have to like and be able to work with everyone. All the people who continue to find ways to complain about his behavior just don't like him. OK. Fork the project.
See: OpenBSD and DragonflyBSD for domain examples of what to do when you have personality conflicts in an open source OS project.
Being combative rarely works out the way you want to, at least in my experience. That being said, it's still important to have standards beyond just empathy. I hope that Linus, and the Linux community can "do both" in some sense.
My guess: if Linus would behave in a nicer, politer way, the Linux kernel would be much more awesome than it already is. Through his behavior and that of the people he has attracted (those that will deal with his shit and have a higher incidence of behaving in the same way), hundreds of would-be contributors have been annoyed, alienated and scared away.
If you questioned every developer on this planet, for every kernel contributor, on every level of expertise, there are two that simply wouldn't deal with his shit and have been lost. The Linux kernel could have been much better.
I don't know who's right or wrong, but I wish Linux people (both sides) behaved more civilly. Linus breeds an atmosphere where personal attacks and insults are encouraged in the name of supposedly better code.
Most of the time, he's not that rude. But when he thinks someone is wrong, he reacts with very offensive comments (especially if the person try to insist to prove her point).
That's some kind of terrorism management : nobody would dare make an error while working on the kernel.
The problem that you don't explicitly mention is that people see Linus behaving this way and feel it's acceptable, and they carry on that behaviour.
Some open source environments are toxic and horrible and it's hard to correct that when you have very public figures acting in that toxic horrible way.
Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules.
Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for the end user...
You realise that there are large, commercial projects that are just as high stakes as the Linux kernel or arguably even higher stakes, and they manage to operate with reasonable team dynamics? There is no correlation between "runs an important project" and "must be an asshole" even though certainly everyone has off days from time to time (I've been known to flame people when reaching the end of my tether but usually regretted it later).
I think this notion - which Linus pushes - that the alternative to yelling at people and generally being short tempered is always "political correctness" ... well it's quite harmful. Yes, it CAN get that way, if people interpret criticism of their work as personal criticism and try to shut it down by complaining about it. I've seen that happen before. Some people don't know how to handle someone implying, even if politely, that their work sucks and can't handle it. But that doesn't mean it has to be that way and well functioning teams manage to avoid it.
Must we go through this constantly? It's not that hard to understand.
Blunt and direct are one thing. Needlessly personally offensive is another.
You are fine with people who act like this. You'd assume you deserved it or you'd even feel honored. You're entitled to feel that way.
Many others think there's no excuse for behaving in that way. We think it's destructive, and that Linus and Linux succeeded despite it. Many of us would never subject ourselves to such an environment.
I get disagreeing. But what is so perplexing about it?
I think this is the underlying point. It's difficult to imagine that Linus's style of criticising attracts people to the industry, or indeed has any benefits at all. Conversely, it clearly puts off a lot of talented people from getting involved in Linux, and people use his style as justification for their own aggression.
Outside of the open source movement, managers using this kind of language would be reprimanded and even fired, as it could make employees feel stressed and suffering from constructive dismissal.
There is simply no need for being rude, or any kind of aggression in the workplace, and we should consider open source contributors as being in the workplace. Full stop.
I don't get it. Why are so many OK with the personal attacks, unprofessional language, and generally toxic communications within the Linux kernel development community? Is it because Linus himself is one of the worst?
While I appreciate the technical talent of the kernel devs, I have lost nearly all respect for these developers. This issue needs to be resolved before it gets worse.
I whole heartedly disagree. Being angry (and making it known) at someone who broke the “first rule of kernel development” and then tried to hide that fact is completely accepted. Attacking said person with personal insults isn’t. I don’t see any of the latter here, compared to Linus’s past reactions to similar situations anyway.
I understand and have experienced what you're talking about, but I don't think it gets to the meat of what people dislike about the way Linus (occasionally) communicates with people. Being more straightforward as in "no that's a dumb idea because X" may put people off, but can be chalked up to "cultural differences in communication". This doesn't really apply to the kinda stuff Linus has said that people complain about:
"Mauro SHUT THE FUCK UP"
"I don't _ever_ want to hear that kind of obvious garbage and idiocy from a kernel maintainer again. "
"fix your approach to kernel programming."
"There aren't enough swear-words in the English language, so now I'll have to call you perkeleen vittupää just to express my disgust and frustration with this crap."
It's ridiculous to claim that that's just avoiding unnecessary civility. Those statements aren't "blunt", they're just him being a dick.
I'm a total outsider to Linux kernel development, but this plays like a bad telenovela, I would have expected better from what seem to be intelligent people. And to keep it OT: no, it's not ok to tell someone "shut the fuck up!", like Linus Torvalds did, no matter the context. It doesn't solve anything, it's unprofessional, and it gives a very, very bad vibe. Not sure how come smart people can stand behind this ("To Linus: You're a hero to many of us.")
I'm assuming the apology[1] from Linus must have come off on complaints raised to the HR department of companies with active contributions to the Linux kernel. Because this was Linus, this went over relatively smoothly for him, but for another person, this may not have been the case.
There is also no telling if the person is interacting in good faith and just doesn't know, in which case the aggression is a bit rude.
You can tell people to fuck off without saying that explicitly, and it also allows you to save face in case the situation isn't what you expected it to be.
> Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around.
This often puts a considerable drag on the whole project, one that can easily climb to way above the contributions of that person. Even worse, this is often not visible at the project level, as multiple people start independently avoiding this person, even finding technical work-arounds to avoid working with them; while their direct contributions are visible to everyone, making it seem like they are indispensable.
The situation with Linus is even more interesting: for years people have worked with him knowing that they sometimes have to endure his abrasive manners. Then, one day, enough people seem to have discussed this with him, and he decided to accept their feedback and change his ways. How much more successful could Linux have been had this discussion happened 10 years earlier? How many developers have quit or never started working on Linus out of social anxiety? Perhaps it's 0, perhaps it's not.
I don't think insults are the solution, but giving a clear no, is a skill many people struggle with. And if some cannot cope with that, blocking individuals also works.
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