1. Like I said I'm from Europe, unfortunately I do not have a green card. However, I think that if you manage get a job at a company it is possible to move to US and work even without a proper degree. For instance, Tim Van Damme ( http://maxvoltar.com/ ) moved from Belgium to work for Gowalla as a designer and from what I remember reading I don't think he even graduated high school.
2. I'm still trying to decide whether to go for a CS degree or a Graphic Design one, but I can totally see your point. College is useful indeed, I've never said that it's a complete waste of time.
In Europe it's a lot easier to immigrate in general. Especially as an EU citizen. And if your country is also a member of the Schengen space, you can just move around using only your ID.
My uncle immigrated in Spain for instance; entered and worked illegally at first (since a Schengen visa was required of him, and he could find illegal work more easilly anyway), but forward 15 years later, and now he has full citizenship and a perfectly legal driver's license. And he has had a legal job for 10 years already.
For me I have the following difficulty - you can't obtain a visa for work in the US if you don't have a college degree in the domain you want to work in. And then it's extremely difficult to be a startup founder that way, since with that kind of visa you can only work as an employee and have a sponsor. Unless you can obtain a Visa at the lottery or for extraordinary merits.
This is absolutely insane - since I just got out and bought a college degree in CS, waited 3 years to get it of course, but I got it, and now I can get an US Visa.
But then again, why should I? Why wouldn't I go work in Zurich or in London or in Berlin, or just stay where I am, since obviously the US doesn't want me?
My perspective is limited as a US citizen who's never been to Europe, but what I would add is that international students here are under a lot of stress to find a job when they graduate so they can stay in the country. Of course choices are limited because not all companies sponsor. You can see entire lines of people disappear at the career fair when a company puts up a sign saying they aren't sponsoring visas this cycle.
The work visa system in the US seems to create this stress because there's no automatic transition between states. You get a fixed, short period of unlimited work after graduating but then you need a job to sponsor you, which will most likely be as a "nonimmigrant" that has to be renewed and updated when you change jobs. And that never converts to a green card on its own, the employer has to start over with a new process and prove that no US workers are available to do the job.
In other countries (not sure about Europe), it's more like you get a work visa the first time, you keep working for 5-7 years, then you automatically get a permanent residence and can change jobs freely (or retire, study, etc.).
You do have a valid concern about what happens if you job ends, but I think in that case a good backup plan is just to apply for schools in Europe. Not sure how the timing would work out with admission cycles or how strict they are about how long you can stay before finding a new job/switching to student though.
You could even see if the US university would be willing to defer your admission for a year to do a "gap year" of work experience? That's kinda sort of a thing in the US, so it's worth asking.
Errrrmmm. If you're an American with a degree, it's pretty trivial. It's certainly trivial when compared to what people have to go through to get into the US.
I know a lot of people who have relocated to NL (me), UK, DE, or FR.
1. Americans can travel freely to most countries in Europe, for business or vacation, no visa required. Once there, you can go on job interviews, and firms with many internationals will have no problem arranging a work visa for you. Alternatively, you can arrange the work visa yourself, which is also pretty easy.
2. Many countries (Holland, for example) have agreements that American entrepreneurs can start their own businesses. You just have to show that you will not be a drain on society (i.e. you buy health insurance and have some money in the bank), and that you will be making a 'substantial investment' in your company (usually less than $10k)
3. I studied here, a one-year M.Sc. (which cost less than $15k and was of a surprisingly high quality), and they gave me a green card for a "job-seeking-year", during which I can work anywhere... but have switch my visa to a normal work permit before it expires. It took me 5 days from getting the permit to switching it to a regular permit.
4. Or you can just find a foreign partner, you don't even need to marry them in some countries. Sometimes that's enough, other times they need to show that they earn enough to take care of you both (in case you can't find work), but the threshold is so low it's a joke ($30-35k yearly salary).
Bad news is: Americans living abroad still have to pay US-income tax, if you make a lot of money. You'll have to stay in your new home for a while and get citizenship (5+ years), renounce your US citizenship, and even then they can come after you for a while...
I know so many US expats over here, and only a few have had visa-related issues (all resolved well). Most of those were because someone didn't do their homework, or didn't take it seriously. All of them pale in comparison to the visa-issue that I've heard from expats living in the US.
People here are predominantly American or European, which means they already have good visas and even if they don't live in a big city with lots of computer industry jobs they can at least move there.
This is probably not how it works where you're currently living. Without an engineering degree or a lot of money, it will be really hard for you to emigrate to North America or Europe.
Your life is not ruined, in so far that you can probably still get a job in your current country.
I don't know about your education system, but can't you retake the university entrance examinations?
To my knowledge, that's usually possible in most countries. Quit design school, study for the exams, and apply again. You'll lose a year, but that's better than being shut out of the rich country emigration stream.
Ideally, if your parents can afford it, study abroad. Here in Canada, for instance, it's easier to attain permanent residency if you went to school here.
I'm a migrant to Germany as a software engineer and I can tell you its probably going to be really hard if you don't at least study in Germany or are a student in your home country (I was a student when I came). You don't necessarily need to stay and get the degree but its much easier for companies to give you an internship and then hire you if you go this route. Otherwise, its a total pain in the anus for the company to hire you over a EU citizen. I've experienced both ends of this now and its basically just not worth it from a company's perspective to hire someone outside the EU unless they are a super talent and/or the company has the resources/hr to deal with all the paperwork crap.
So to answer, "In other words, can I get a work visa anywhere in Europe without having an offer in hand?" Theoretically yes, practically - highly unlikely.
Maybe its better in other EU countries but I wouldn't know.
To #2: just flying in and hoping you'll land something even with a very solid portfolio is a bad idea, since its highly unlikely any company is going to go through the hoops so you can work for them and time will be against you since the process takes a while.
I'd say if you can suck it up you should go the student route since its the path of least resistance and all you need is to be enrolled, you don't have to finish. Then get an internship since thats easy enough and make a good impression, then that company will want to do the legwork to hire you. This whole process might take about 2 years but at the end of the day you'll be set.
> Yeah, I've noticed that Europe and Japan are almost impossible to move to.
Why do you say that? I've moved here 4 years ago, it was a bit of a hassle to get the work permit, but it wasn't that bad.
Basically if you can earn the equivalent of more than about ~45k usd/year, or are a student (and one of a few specific professions- like artists and musicians) it's not that hard to get into the EU.
And coming here with a tourist visa and staying until you manage to get a work permit is much easier than in the US - even getting a tourist visa can be quite difficult in the US, where as as long as you are from a 1st world country you don't even need to apply for one to come to the EU.
1. No, that's impossible. This is why companies outsource to India instead of move Indians to Europe. If you want to work inside Europe you'll have to go through the long process of becoming European.
2. No, if you start living somewhere illegally you'll be deported. The first step is to visit Embassies.
If you can get a job offer from a EU company, the EU blue card scheme means you'll get a residence permit (visas are for tourists), and it doesn't strictly need a college degree but 3 years of experience[1].
But considering it feels like the world's economy is about to enter a new period of hurt (I think they're still looking for IT people?), maybe going to university now is not a bad idea, in the hopes that when you finish it in a few years, the world will be on its way to some sort of recovery.
If this were the 23rd of February and the war hadn't happened, I'd say if you have the skills/experience, apply to companies in e.g. Germany, they were seemingly so desperate for IT people that anyone competent could get a contract, and the visa sponsorship (that's been made less bureaucratic).
IMO, contact recruitment agencies in Europe and see if the agent's got the hots for you, they should know the market, and if they think you're qualified for a job, they'll be really keen to talk to you, because they want to place you and earn that commission. If they're not that keen, it's either the market or your qualifications, maybe they'll give you a straight answer.
I saw that you need a graduate degree for the Blue Card (for the EU), or 3 (or 5?) years of experience. Somehow, having a degree looks like a safer bet in my eyes. It could be that they're entirely equivalent, I find it hard to check that.
Yeah, I agree. I guess I should figure out if immigration is something that's absolutely necessary. I'm frustrated by my home country (see my other comment), but sometimes I come to terms with it (although not for long).
> you've probably got a lot of life experience that others don't have.
As a european developer and HN reader I've recently been wondering how feasible it is to move to the states after I finished university.
It seems the general trend would be something in the like of getting a visa, start looking for a job and be lucky your employer can get you a green card. After this 5 years of living in the states before you can become an American citizen.
You can get a PR faster (3y) if you’re here on a blue card (which is likely true for all non-EU tech workers).
Universities are not all free for non-EU citizens and some programs (generally English-speaking) Masters are (properly, not the 400€) paid for citizens and non-citizens alike.
I have no experience with trying to get into US but I know the situation of my friends who came to EU. Generally you can forget about it without a good degree (e.g. Eng, Msc or MD).
Of course you could also come as a student and finish your education within EU. In some countries you can even do it for free.
I moved from Russia to Sweden, then to the Netherlands as a software engineer.
Interesting thing about my situation - I don't have any degree.
Before even looking for a job, I had to do research about work permit rules in different countries in respect to bachelor degree.
The problem is that I couldn't ask for any help on the Internet for two reasons. First, there were very few "smart dropouts" looking for a job abroad. Second, very strong perception in society that university degree is solid, reliable and universal proof of qualification (and that's wrong, having a degree from noname university often tells absolutely nothing about qualification). Usually, I got useless answers like this: sorry, but Europe is out of the question, nobody needs uneducated people.
Obvious choices like US couldn't work for me since they have stupid H1B visa system. According to stupid logic of H1B, even if you get decent job offer from Google, you are not eligible for H1B visa without degree or 12 years of documentary proven relevant experience.
For months, I thought it's not possible to go anywhere in the first world without a degree.
In 2014, I dismissed popular beliefs that it's almost impossible to relocate without a degree. At that time, I decided to directly contact several immigration authorities about work visa requirements - Hong Kong, the Netherlands and Sweden.
In Hong Kong, they said it's theoretically possible. At that point, I realized that I still have a chance.
In the Netherlands, Immigration and Naturalisation Service confirmed that degree is not a requirement for highly-skilled work permit. And this was starting point to actually look for a job in the Netherlands.
Additionally, I found my ex-colleagues in LinkedIn who work in Europe. I significantly improved my LinkedIn profile by explaining what I actually did at my previous jobs. Also, I added lots of recruiters to my LinkedIn network. Gradually, my profile became relevant and I started appearing in searches more often.
There were some very useful recruiters (mainly from London), who gave me valuable advices about my CV. If you have a lot of recruiters in your network, then you have a good chance to have a few of them, who understand your non-standard situation (i.e. not having any degree) and who are willing to spend their time giving you advices and recommend you to employers.
What I found is that mediocre companies tended to care much more about degree, than top companies. For example, Google, Facebook and Amazon really don't care about your degree unless it's Standford, MIT or something like this.
It was a long story how I failed lots of interviews because of cultural fit, ability to explain well what you thinking during coding round etc. I won't cover it here.
Eventually, I moved to Sweden first, worked for two companies there, then I moved to the Netherlands (thanks for 30% tax rulling for expats, I love it!).
Speaking from experience, that's not necessarily true. EU countries accept equivalent experience in lieu of academic qualifications.
Assuming that you are offered a position that pays well, and have around 5-ish years of experience, emigration is a breeze.
My experience with getting might not be universal since I work in a niche CS field, but getting a work permit (also alluded to by other commenters) was trivial and likely applies to everyone.
A 4 year degree really helps when trying to get an employment visa in a developed country though. e.g. Japan has a 4 year degree or 10 years equivalent work experience requirement.
There was a thread last year where lots of people commented about being rejected for a visa in Europe because they didn't have a degree, despite having multiple years of experience.
Having a college degree can be a requirement for work visas.
I moved to SF from Europe, and this would have been a real problem without a master degree.
Not sure about requirements for european visas, but that's probably true too.
2. I'm still trying to decide whether to go for a CS degree or a Graphic Design one, but I can totally see your point. College is useful indeed, I've never said that it's a complete waste of time.
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