Yes well i don't really like it how some women seem to think its their right to feel uncomfortable at the drop of a hat, ruins it for the rest of us. Anyone can feel uncomfortable about anything for any reason. they should toughen up and say something when they are, it 'll make life easier for themselves and other women like me who have to deal with the stereotype created by it. I am not a delicate flower that must be protected from all the things.
"women have already gotten a raw deal by being socialised to find sex uncomfortable"
The counter to this is that they should be made more comfortable by not ~forcing~ them to pretend to be comfortable with awkward conversations in professional situations. Some things aren't as progressive as you imagine.
One way to read the "this happens to me too!" comments is that they're not belittling her experience, but validating it. All of us have been disrespected. We all hate it. That's a very shallow understanding of her point.
If something is annoying when it happens, it's also extra annoying when it happens just a bit more often because the people around might be just a little bit sexist. Once this community can realize that, without it feeling like an existential threat, we'll all be better off.
That sounds like an equally valid criticism to me, but if you're sense of prudence suggests that some people might not want to hear it from a dude, so does mine. It's understandable that people sometimes feel like their being attacked en masse by outsiders when we talk about this, but I think we're better off if we're able to talk about it civilly.
Looking and dressing "right" is hard for some people. Approaching our expectations with a more removed perspective helps, but does tend to sound clinical. For what it's worth my gf complains about this kind of stuff in a way that sounds similar to me, but using somewhat less high-brow language. :)
EDIT: I asked gf what she thought of that paragraph: "meh i don't give shit it's fine." Then I asked if she thought a man could get away with saying it: "probably not on the internet LOL". n=1.
Well what I was saying is that the women should make it obvious that they don't tolerate this behaviour. So that even somebody who's a little slow socially will get the message. Don't spare their feelings, just get the message across I guess.
Please don't apologize or worry about it. Honestly, the intention behind that comment did not communicate properly. I apologize for that. Sometimes, text is hard to parse.
It's not a serious issue that causes discomfort at all. At least not for me.
The comments were couched in an over-the-top tone to mirror the over-the-top nature of Adria's response--particularly from the point that she began employing an appeal to emotion in her explanations, and characterizing herself as a Joan of Arc. I staunchly defend everyone's right to be free of actual sexism, be it a man, woman, or transgendered person. And one doesn't need an appeal to emotion if one can properly identify sexism. One only needs to present the facts. The facts here do not warrant the sexism overtones Adria gave to the situation, or the over-the-top reaction.
I was using bra-adjusting (and all the conversational topics) as examples of utterly harmless actions that occur at a time and place that may not be appropriate, comparing them to a similar body-related action--say, me adjusting within view of women, above the table--that, given the situation we're discussing, could potentially result in a trumped up charge of it being more than just an innocuous action that is (or may be) situation-inappropriate. More likely is the fact that it's just stuff that happens because people aren't thinking that someone is analyzing their behaviors that closely and making it a big fucking deal.
I was implying that junk-adjusting is an action we've been socialized into considering inappropriate, whereas bra-adjusting is very similar. It doesn't actually bother anyone. It's just shit people do, that may or may not be appropriate, and nobody needs to be overreacting to that kind of stuff.
Again, I apologize for failing to communicate all that properly without causing confusion and misunderstanding. Honestly, if I'd known that some of those comments were going to incite the "men's rights" derailment--I now know of the existence of r/mensrights, or whatever it is--I'd have been a bit more explicit in mocking the over-the-top tone. Regrettably, I figured that part out after my edit window expired.
This is pretty typical. When men express how they feel, they get attacked.
In an inclusive society with room for many perspectives, some things you hear might make you uncomfortable. It stops being inclusive when you "more actively chase their authors away".
And I can't understand how this advice (at least as phrased in the title) is specific to one gender.
(And if that's not your problem—why should women be more uncomfortable than men around sexual statements in general? That's almost the opposite of feminism.)
I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that if you're female and you want to speak up about feeling belittled or harassed, the problem is in you, and we will gladly tell you that you need to stop bringing this subject up because we are so darn tired of hearing people like you try to bring us down.
If, however, you are male and you are feeling belittled or harassed, we're pretty interested in having a serious discussion about your experience. We may not agree with you and we may tell you that we don't think you should feel that way at all, but we won't tell you not to have the discussion.
If you're a woman, though? You're not allowed to have that discussion. Leave it to the menfolk.
There's definitely a bit of a double standard here. I overhear comments like this fairly regularly. It's just normal and accepted behavior. (I wouldn't go as far as to say society generally has "deference to women's feelings", though.)
I am suggesting we not make self-serving assertions about how women should feel. There is debating and then there is putting words in other people's mouths that are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves. If women themselves are not making this type of argument, men have no place in making it on their behalf.
I struggle with this myself. At the risk of sounding misogynistic: How come it’s always women who can’t deal with these “minor irritations”?
I’ve never heard from any of my male friends complaining in this tack.
The issue isn't that people think "hey, woman, I'll treat her differently". The issue is that people with different experiences will communicate in different ways, hold different priorities, and they'll react differently to the same stories and comments.
And they very well might decide that they don't want to spend their free time attempting to talk to people who they can't communicate effectively with because of some combination of the above. Feeling like you're one of the only people who understands your experiences in a community really sucks.
It's probably true that, for the most part, men are less likely to mind, say, crude sexual remarks about women, but I don't think it follows that we should just tell women to suck it up.
Everyone is giving this woman a hard time, but I have heard my wife say something similar. I think a large part of what the (presumably male) posters here are missing is how differently women interact with other women.
Are you saying that the men here aren't being empathetic because they feel like when they talk to women they get called creepy and therefore don't want to? Please, be specific.
Otherwise it just sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
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