Who said anything was hidden? Most high school graduates in the US understand that going to college almost certainly means a lifetime of debt. But they also recognize the opportunity cost of being uneducated, which they deem a greater cost than the financial cost of loans. And please don't claim that's invalid, because (a) I agree, which is why I did it, and (b) claiming it's invalid implies that money is the only thing of importance in a person's life, which is kind of dystopian a view.
The claim is not that colleges provide no value, but that going to college is not a reliable indicator of anything but privilege. Using it as an indicator of intelligence or work ethic, especially as being more intelligent and hard working than someone who got their degree from University of Phoenix, doesn't work. It's just buying into the narrative that rich people must be rich because they're smart.
I am saying there is no productive value in them going relative to their financial burden. For the many who go for free/cheap thanks to state subsidy, that's great. But then we shouldn't worry that students aren't studying, since college doesn't really DO anything in regards to future productivity and the like.
Also, a lot of the "soft" factors people romanticize about college (spawning appreciation for the arts or some niche intellectual pursuit, civic/social development) have occurred for thousands of years by people just growing up.
I feel bad for kids who listened to the surface level advice millennials spouted about "college is a waste of time and money". The truth of that statement is a lot more nuanced.
1) Expensive colleges MUST be approached from a cost-benefit analysis perspective, much like any expensive investment in life. It's rarely the case that going out-of-state to pursue a degree with poor career prospects makes for a good life.
2) Higher education is about learning and refining a particular way of viewing the world. Engineers look at how they can construct a new world, scientists seek the truth of the world, philosophers seek to extend human thought, etc. Many people who are heavily invested in their discipline believe everyone should view the world the way they do (engineers are famous for this arrogance).
3) Learning about a new world view has nothing to do with making money. A well-honed mind is a reward in and of itself.
4) It's an unfortunate truth that one must earn money in order to survive in our capitalist society. Rather than run away from that truth, it's better to realize the individual can mold that system much more easily when they learn the rules. Higher education in higher demand fields tends to result in higher wages and easier-to-find jobs
Many college-age people I know these days are aware that college is just a marketing ploy for most people, but nobody is going to individually risk calling its bluff.
I don't think that has the impact that you think it does. I'm not saying I believe this now but the one of the first things I learned in life is that rich people will lie to you. They feel guilty about being where they are so they'll tell you that you can be like them when in fact they'll never really accept you.
You're probably right. There are some poor people who work to send their kids to college thinking that it will solve all their kid's problems. But I think most know better and so I think a lot of that outreach falls on deaf ears.
(Which incidentally isn't to say my parents didn't encourage me to go to college. Because much of society has set "having a degree" up as a litmus test for "is smart enough to have a career". But they made sure I knew enough to learn from my professors expertise while not adopting their flawed valued system)
Of course "everyone" knows its a problem, but your anecdote does nothing to help solve it. The issue is the cultural momentum around the idea that college is the first and nearly only gateway into the middle class. We need to be discussing how to correct this pervasive misconception, not patting ourselves on our backs because we didn't fall for it. And blaming students for falling for what seemingly every authority in society was telling them is a grave mistake.
It's not just sold to rich kids -- but there's also an implication that, for a non-rich person, going to college can enable you to move out of your income class.
The “everyone goes to college” mantra has caused educational inflation caused by misaligned incentives created from a misunderstood effect.
In the past, wealthy people self selected to go to college because they could afford to live and pay for college at the same time, all of their life, they liked had a lot of educational privilege because they likely were able to focus on studies and not menial work.
Post WWII, college was the hip thing to do that any good middle class young adult could do. They could go to a school that taught you almost exclusively what you wanted to know as everyone motivated enough to go likely had the background to succeed. College moved from a intellectual play grand for the rich to something closer to a vocational school.
Because these the new college grads were going into new and specialized industries and earning way higher than average, lawmakers in the US took notice and instead of paying for college for all, they created the worst class of loan in history, one that cannot be discharged, subsidized by the federal government, and under minimal oversight. Colleges noticed this and raised tuition gradually until about 2000-2005 where it rose sharply out of control because they realized that every year that the fed just increased the loan cap, so now you have this loan cap tracking the cost of college in a case of perverse incentives where the most vulnerable people in this arrangement lose. I’m not even going to mention the FAFSA and what a steaming pile of horseshit the “estimated family contribution” is and how to this day condemns millions of students to take on ridiculous private loans just to be able to qualify for a job that maybe pays above minimum wage.
Meanwhile, colleges are finding out that the “everyone goes to college” push made enrollment skyrocket but the quality of students has plummeted. Students are no longer self selecting, where in the past only the best and the brightest wanted to continue schooling, everyone from your high school valedictorian to the room-temperature-IQ nose picker was applying. They had to be more selective thereby creating more elite institutions, the rest of them had to deal with the problem of unqualified students filling up their ranks and wanted to find a way to extract more value so they lobbied for additional, comprehensive general education requirements which kept students in college, spending money on classes, because a ton of kids entering can’t do math or write coherently.
Now, college is simply an extra few years of high school that ends up being very expensive and it’s returns are questionable with the best results achieved by those actually interested in the material but their 4-year degree looks exactly the same as the other person who skirted through class doing the bare minimum. What’s next? A masters degree.
I cannot imagine a more machiavellian, insane, and hostile system for students. The current college system represents a fall from grace where students carried this increasing burden and we just let it happen.
I never went to HS or college. It's pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have an internet connection. I have a high-paying career that I made for myself. Of course, whenever I bring this up people write me off as some kind of genius (I'm not) or some kind of exception. I'm really not. Yes, statistics show that going to college is correlated with more financial success than those who do not attend college. I suspect that has more to do with the demographics associated with those who attend college rather than what was learned in college.
Regardless, my problem with college is they take zero responsibility for their student's success while simultaneously employing rhetoric and advertising that tells kids that it will help them get a job. This is borderline fraud. Colleges should not be able to sell kids degrees on the idea that they will get a job with them whilst not actually accomplishing that.
What do I mean by taking responsibility for success? There are trade schools where if you don't get a job within X years you only owe a fraction of the tuition (or none at all).
The problem with the 'personal responsibility' screed in regards to university in America is that more or less my entire generation was hoodwinked into going to college and doing anything and to totally not worry about the cost because loans are available and you'll never get a job that will amount to anything if you don't go to college. Ironically enough, a large portion of my high school class that's doing the best financially are the kids who didn't think they were smart enough for college that went into trade school or apprenticeships. When your parents, guidance counselors, and basically the entire system are yelling that you'll never do more than flip burgers if you don't rack up a lot of student debt going to school, and you're a young impressionable youth that trusts these people...well, I think you have to be somewhat willfully ignorant or just an obtuse asshole to blame those of us who took that advice and got burned.
People just don't understand on here. It isn't like buying a loaf of bread.
Kids want to go to college. It's an exciting time in everyone's life, you get to go away somewhere, meet knew people, all while earning a degree, which because of the corporate worship of our nation, is now required to get a job.
And you wonder why fees are so high? And tuition skyrocketed?
No one shows anger towards the corporations which don't train anymore for their BS job in their BS department which doesn't do much of anything. We ignore the corporate bloat and regulatory capture across the entire spectrum for the select few corporations that have our politicians in their back pocket.
We need to stop pretending young people are complete gullible idiots who don't read anything on the internet or listen to advice from their parents and other adults. There's a simpler explanation and we already know it.
Going to college and getting an education (and especially a good university) makes you so much more money in the future, that it's worth paying a lot. Prices could go to $500K and it'd be worth it. Everyone knows this implicitly. That's why immigrant parents nail their kids so hard on grades and to get into a good school. Is it because they want their kids to get a bunch of debt and become unemployed? Come on. You are way way more likely to get a job with benefits, to spend your life doing something more meaningful (however you want to define it).
It's only us who already went to college, got good careers, who are now saying "well college makes you end up in debt, jobless, with a worthless degree. go into the trades. work for the post office." Why don't more people on Hacker News go into trades? Do some unpleasant, strenuous work in dangerous conditions, for about 10 years hustling day and night before your body gives out for $50K/year? Everyone actually doing a trade is encouraging their kids to go to college.
This really isn't that complicated, and I think most people here are overthinking things. A college degree GREATLY greatly increases the chance you're going to have a more fulfilling career easily that makes you back all the tuition money and opportunity costs, and more.
The problem is that college is too accessible. Kids are expected to go to college no matter what, there is no longer even a question of whether or not someone needs a college degree, they are expected to go, no matter how crappy a school they get into.
And for kids they aren't making the decisions with their own money. If they had to pony up their own 30-40K, instead of getting "free money" from loans, they'd think twice, whether or not that Communications degree from some crappy 3rd rate college with no name is worth 60K.
Exactly. Schools have been pushing the idea that college graduates make more money for decades (and that graduates from elite colleges make even more money), and somehow it's the students' fault for falling victim to the constant brainwashing.
So just to be clear, you're repudiating your statement that when people can't afford to attend college, that's not for lack of intelligence on their part?
Ok. I went to college because I wanted a brighter future than my parents (read: I wanted to make more money than them). So from that perspective college has not been very valuable at all.
I don't think I'm in the minority in that way at all.
Or is your argument that all people who go to college are "rich and naive kids" as you implied earlier in the thread?
You're exposing a pretty huge chip on your shoulder.
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