Im an istanbullu whos been living in vienna for almost 4 years now. First of all, i do think that vienna is a far better option than istanbul as a whole(including living costs if youre willing to live in a WG-sharedflat). In istanbul people tend to use old and outdated technologies, so talent is quite rare but if u can find some, they will cost u cheaper. Somehow i spend less money in vienna than i do in istanbul, its quite strange i know but thats a fact! Infrastructure in istanbul is quite lame too. Obtaining an austrian living permit should be pretty hard if ure not an EU citizen, i have a student visa. Berlin is probably the best bet, i agree. I just dont agree that istanbul is a hacker-friendly place.
Istanbul is awesome. Scenery is beautiful, and the waterpipe cafes don't mind if you sit there the whole day, as long as you order tea or something every now and then. Quite a lot of them have decent WiFi as well, though many sites are blocked in Turkey.
I haven't been to Berlin but have spent a lot of time in Istanbul.
Istanbul is big, really really big, like mind-bogglingly big. It's Europe's biggest city (although technically part of it is in Asia too) but if you want to live somewhere posh like Bebek or Nisantasi it's as expensive as anywhere else nice in a major European city. If on the other hand you're prepared to live in a less nice area or a bit further out then there's some good deals to be had.
If you're living somewhere properly then the quality of the food is far higher than that accessible to me here in my bit of the UK, eating out is generally more expensive in terms of average income percentage but typically less expensive than London in terms of raw costs.
I would highly recommend Istanbul to anyone looking to try something a bit different. It really does feel like nowhere else in the world, a chaotic mishmash of east and west but with a great vibe and great people.
I love Vienna. Would the language barrier be a problem for a non-German speaker? I have no hesitation to learn a different language, though I'd be starting from scratch. How would you compare Vienna to someplace like Berlin?
Well, everyone else has given an idea about why you shouldn't go to Berlin.
In case you have a powerful reason for still going there, a few quick points: English is not that common, but is far more common than in the neighboring cities - you probably won't be super comfortable, but you'll survive. If you are on a budget and/or planning to live on whatever money you already have, Berlin is much cheaper than any of the other countries mentioned. There's also a very large Turkish community, in case that means something for you.
Keep in mind all the negative comments mentioned, though. This points are valid when you are a regular citizen, but as a refugee they might not apply.
I had an unexpected two week stay in Berlin due to the volcano stopping air traffic. I fell in love with the place. A physically beautiful city steeped in high culture, but due to the communist experience, half the city has cheap rents. There's a long tradition of hacker culture here as well, spilling over into the artist and anarchist/radical politics scenes as well. Transit is ridiculously good.
It was very surprising how cheap everything was. Also, Doner Kebab (Turkish/German fusion street food) is a reason to stay all in itself.
I can't speak to the availability of startup capital though, if that's important to you.
Living in Berlin since 1 year. I am coming here from Barcelona and everybody asked me if I was crazy because I was living a "super cool beach and sun" city and going into storms.
First of all, Barcelona might seem to be cool for vacations but once you live there, you will see that in winters it's pretty boring, people are not happy with their lifes due to policital and economical issues. Maybe you can build your circle with expats and isolate yourself from daily problems but I was surrounded by local people, also knowing the language I could not isolate. It was unbearable listening peoples' complaints about how big fucked they are etc. Barcelona pissed me off finally. After Berlin,
- I liked Berlin two times more than I expected. I am originally Turkish, so the community here helps me in my day-to-day business. No, I am not living ghetto life and avoiding that, but it's cool to be able to communicate when I go for shopping. Now I can also communicate in German more or less, so I need less my Turkish skills but still it helps me to feel like at home. You never know who is Turkish there, the doctor, the police officer, the hipster hamburger boy. So it's cool.
- Of course economically it is much better. In Berlin you make not so less than other parts of Germany but definitely you spend less. This is the cheapest capital of developed EU countries. Many people already mentioned that.
- I like using cars. Maybe for Americans it is unbelievable but in almost all European capitals you are punished because you have a car: Expensive parking, so strict rules etc. Berlin is not one of them, you can use a cheap and good car and you will need it. You can go shopping (and then you can go to the cheapest and best one, not the nearest one to your home), you can go out of the city etc. Having car won't hurt you here.
- There is one thing that many people in Berlin did not discover: Poland is one hour away. I know that country because my GF is from there. Very occasionally we are going there to do our shopping, repair the car etc. So it is possible to lower your spending even more exploiting this possibility. If you have a car you should definitely do that. Also supermarkets there have fancier stuff and very good food.
- Well about work culture everyone already said what it should be said. Briefly I am happy here, I think Berlin will my home for the next decades and I recommend to everybody to give a chance. This is a city where you can live easily.
We've been traveling with our startup for about 4 years. Berlin is by far the best city of all the ones we've visited, though Amsterdam is very close in terms of being a nice place to live.
Living on the eastern side of the wall, rents are cheap.
The main thing that keeps us from relocating there more permanently is the immigration issue, but it looks like this may be resolved, at least partially.
One thing though, you probably do want to learn German. While many germans speak english (even more so in the startup scene) a lot of germans don't, and day to day life involves a fair bit of basic german.
We've been traveling with our startup for about 4 years. Berlin is by far the best city of all the ones we've visited, though Amsterdam is very close in terms of being a nice place to live.
Living on the eastern side of the wall, rents are cheap.
The main thing that keeps us from relocating there more permanently is the immigration issue, but it looks like this may be resolved, at least partially.
One thing though, you probably do want to learn German. While many germans speak english (even more so in the startup scene) a lot of germans don't, and day to day life involves a fair bit of basic german.
Care to recommend somewhere better? I'm a US based person, but travel to Berlin fairly often and have interacted with several tech friends there in the local scene. It is a surprisingly vibrant and friendly community. Coworking also seems to be a really big thing there.
So, price aside, it is still cheaper than any major US city (especially with the current USD <--> EUR exchange rate), London, and anything else I personally am aware of.
I was exactly in the same situation 2 years back and instead of Dubai I was in Lahore, Pakistan. I got offer from Berlin and I was offered I believe 4500 Euros/month and I posted on Hacker News too look at that thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10602867 ( Ask HN: Full Stack developer offer from Berlin )
I didn't move to Berlin and my reasons were little different. If I were to suggest you I would say move to Berlin and the strongest point is you can get National there with in 3 to 4 years. second strong point is Berlin is turning into European Tech Hub exposure you can get while living Berlin you can't get in Dubai.
From San Francisco to Berlin. Housing is affordable and the startup scene is growing really quickly. Food is great and beer is outstanding. Full of young people and interesting events. The tech community is growing pretty quickly.
Only two things that are really bad:
- payment network
- internet network
I lived in Estonia and worked for their government for a while - it's not so online first for foreigners unless you're resettling indefinitely. Also, it's rather expensive especially when comparing the salary level locally. Personally I enjoyed it but having lived in SF, San Diego, Berlin, London, Berlin, Tallinn, and Shanghai I would definitely go with Berlin. It has an optimal mix of being relatively cheap, a good tech scene but not a dominant one, enough english speaking you can get around, and great quality of life. But I do still want to try NYC, DC, Lisbon, and Nairobi
Berlin is awesome, beautiful, lovely -- in the summer, for tourists / temporary guests / foreigners. BUT... being an ex-local -- in the cold season (that lasts 8-9 months out of 12 per year) and for locally-registered sole traders or companies or employees, it's not THAT outstanding. Since I do the "lifestyle business" thing for now, as a German citizen I chose to de-register with the tax authorities and from other registers and stay out of the country except for 2-4 lovely summer months (just arrived back a few weeks back) where I stay here as a long-term "tourist" in holiday flats.
Need to socialize with Hacker types? In any place with at least 100k population, you'll find a few. And how many do you need really? My hometown Potsdam had enough of them to have a fun social life. I happily geeked out and co-worked with Hacker Newsers on Malaysian islands. If Berlin really does attract "more of them", how much value does that really add if 1-5 cool people is all that's needed?
It's a groovy place for sure for Indie hackers and creative types. But my "company" is registered elsewhere: the authorities here just simply get in the way too much, obstruct your core business with mindless pointless bureaucracy and take WAY too large a cut of your turnovers. I understand when locals or citizens who get together to form a company register it here and suffer through taxes, forms and labour regulations simply because they, their co-founders, employees and clients were born here or are locals too. But US/UK startup founders moving to Germany to set up their company here? I don't see it. Spend your first 3-6 months pre-incorporation product building here on a Ramen basis on a tourist visa, sure, OK. But don't set up shop here unless you have to. If you want to head offshore from the US or the UK, then either Chile or Asia could prove much more worthwhile. And I cannot reiterate enough: geeks and more specifically talented enthusiastic hackers -- they're really everywhere on the planet, not just in SF, Berlin and London. You'll find them wherever you go, as soon as you figure out how and where to look.
The US isn't the only place to start something, try Berlin and say goodbye to any visa problems.
Top 5 reasons why you should move to Berlin, now:
1. Lowest livings costs with highest quality of living. Stay in gorgeous, perfectly renovated apartments in pre-WWII residential buildings with high ceilings, right in the middle of the center and pay a fraction of costs of any other capital (even cheaper than any Eastern European capital). No need for a car—Berlin has one of the densest subway nets and wide streets make biking fun.
2. A vibrant and fast growing ecosystem of smart people. A vast number of new software talents, founders, software companies and VCs are moving to Berlin, every day (Twitter, Google, Soundcloud, Early Bird and many more).
3. People here are open-minded, outgoing, mix well and international—no need to learn German, everyone speaks English! Making new friends is a matter of days. Visit tons of networking and startup events, every week.
4. Easy work permissions—Europeans do not need any and can work from day one and the rest applies for the hassle-free Blue Card.
5. Berlin's night life is unmatched, huge and changing every day (plus ridiculously cheap). Berlin has got some of the most dazzling, naughty, and original clubs on the face of the Earth.
Berlin is calling and getting the new tech hub of Europe. If you are passionate about building great software, we’d love to talk with you. If you don't live in Berlin yet, we could help to fix that.
Hamburg and Munich are among the most expensive places in Europe. Living costs in Berlin are probably half (you can rent a place for under 200 EUR if you wnat). There is also a much better startup and developer scene. So if you are into the whole startup thing, Berlin is pretty great.
And the crime rate, schools, ... compared to the US? Really? ;)
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