I applaud you on your foresight and you should pat yourself on the back extra good tonight.
But clearly others trusted MtGox. I haven't traded a bitcoin since 2011 so I don't know much about the community past what I'd absorb about anything that's on HN daily. But isn't the claim that MtGox lost like 6% of all BTC in existence? If you think this is going to sail by without impacting the larger community, I think the foresight that led you away from MtGox is failing you now.
People are now $500+ million dollars poorer than they thought they were. That has ripples. That will erode confidence. And my bet is that it will erode confidence.
I appreciate your thoughts and, perhaps to your surprise, entirely agree.
I'm calm about it now because I've had years to reflect and learn. I began in 2013 buying small sums of bitcoin around ~$50. I amassed ~$500k by 2017, the most I had ever seen in my life, and throughout the year I made some profitable trades on btc-e.com. I had a competitive advantage on that platform because my orders would be filled prior to the blocks those transactions would be in. btc-e was seized by US authorities in July, but much of their funds were already gone.
This was entirely my failure. What did I learn?
* diversify crypto holdings (such as OP's hot and cold wallets)
* diversify outside of crypto
* use regulated platforms (traditionally these are banks)
* understand fundamentals (I was so painfully naive)
* help others avoid these pitfalls (if I had a single friend I trusted to disclose my holdings, I'd almost certainly have made better choices)
I just responded to another comment below, which you might find helpful https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28910361. The foundational elements a blockchain provides - namely transparency and ownership of digital assets - are absolutely critical to our future as a society.
Crypto in its current forms is mostly noise, but there are also really pivotal things being build by people I choose to trust far more than the World Economic Forum.
MtGOX was one of a few situations which would have led me to having a million in the bank if not for seemingly small changes. Alas, it didn’t happen, and honestly there were many other ways that it would have otherwise not happened. Sure its fun to multiply tens of bitcoins I once owned by the all time high, but this is about as effective as thinking about picking different lottery numbers. It would be nice if I got every coin back from mtgox, my balance would sell for something between a nice car and a nice house these days, but this is reality, reality has risks, and I made risky choices and got the results which I did.
No, you are still learning the lesson, it's not been learned at all.
You are being illogical about your investment. Go back to the moment you bought the Bitcoin. You apparently thought they were worth $1000 per Bitcoin at that moment, there is nothing wrong with that.
That you invested in Bitcoin means you expected them to rise, do you remember how much you expected them to rise? In what timespan? Does the price going down for now affect that estimation? In what way? Why would you sell your Bitcoin?
There's answers to all those questions that go in every direction, but they lie in the future, so the only thing you can do is make a reasonable prediction, and hope it was realistic enough.
Some people think Bitcoin will go to $10k, some people think Bitcoin will prove useless and die out. Decide in which camp you are.
About MtGox: If MtGox would somehow mess up bad enough that your money/btc is not safe there, that would hit the BTC so bad that its value would at least half, if not more, at every exchange. Trying to withdraw your bitcoin now is madness, you're just risking getting it stuck.
Be careful with your panicking. I myself am too afraid to go long on Bitcoin, if I had I'd have over 10x my original investment now, instead I just speculate and profit from panic sellers, it's fun and pretty low risk. I sell whenever Bitcoin is stable, and buy whenever there's panic.
I don't believe in Bitcoin being worth $1000 right now, but I do believe that the technology and ideas are solid enough, that whenever there's a panic the price will recuperate fairly quickly as people realize not actually all that much changed.
Why did you use MtGox. You should of done research before investing that much money. If you'd done rudimentary research, you would of immediately seen that MtGox was a very risky exchange to use... even just for very short term transactions. I'm lost as to why anyone actually still used MtGox over the last 6 months or so.
Secondly if you can't stomach the swings in Bitcoin, it's not the speculatory investment for you. You need to have a plan and stick to it. Buy and hold for 5 years is a reasonable plan.
I'm sorry if this isn't sympathetic, but you need to learn from your mistake.
If only it were that easy. I had planned to hold BTC long term after gathering a significant amount in 2010~2011, and stupidly got caught in the MtGox implosion. I've totally lost my will to live at this point and have come to the conclusion that I'll simply never be happy again.
Honestly you are talking rubbish. Bitcoin is currently just below it's ATH, so if anyone lost money it is because of stupid trades and not because the value of what they bought diminished severely.
So according to your research 99% of people who have bought it have lost money. That's complete bullshit, I personally don't know anyone who has lost money, they have all made significant returns, so unless they represent your 1%, I say again, you are talking bollocks.
Don't go roamimg through old bitcoin threads on Reddit then.
You'll find grave yards of people that panick sold during the Mt Gox meltdown. There was this one guy who dropped his entire life savings on bitcoin when it was $850 and then sold at $350. I think the math turned out to be in the multiple millions had he held the same amount today.
Ah, how good it feels to not have been a greedy bitcoin evangelist. That is, 90% of the people pushing positive opinions about Bitcoin, have a stake in it, in investment - not actual, real use. Just a 'hope it goes up, so I can make money like a bandit.'
The truth is that if one really wanted to assist Bitcoin, they'd buy a few; not a treasure trove for speculative investment.
The really sad thing about this situation is that Bitcoin investors are not the usual class of investors that measure safety, volatility, and other factors. These are your hardware monkeys and computer geeks who have 15k saved up, find an investment they can finally relate to, and foolishly attach all their emotion to their savings floating inside a glass ball. I wish our kind could be more rational when it comes to enthusiasm and unbridled ignorance surrounding bits and bytes. Because it usually doesn't hurt us but when it does, we never see it coming.
I too made a bunch of money on BTC but in the end, it was just gambling. Got lucky, nothing more, nothing less. I did not know anything, the future just landed on what I thought would happen. Survivorship bias at it's finest.
Buying BTC at an all time high was dumb, but stopping now that it's low would be dumber.
Saying that they lost millions is incorrect - they haven't lost anything because they haven't sold any of their BTC yet. And it's only been a couple years. We won't know if this was a good or bad investment until 2050.
Everyone I know in BTC cashed out months/years ago. Makes them feel sick thinking about what they've missed out on recently. But I keep telling them they made a the same decision any rational actor would
I made what I believed was a rational risk assessment at the time (back when MtGox was spinning up... Not exactly the most credible days for BTC) and decided to avoid the hype.
Could I use the money now? Sure. It's money.
But I don't regret the decision now because I was acting on the information I had.
Heck, even now, it's possible for someone to buy BTC and for it to crash. Should those people regret their decision even if, in their estimation, it's rational now?
To be blunt: if you spend any time regretting these types of things you're a gambler, not an investor, and will find yourself tricked into trying to time markets. And that will eventually bite you in the ass.
As for me, the same reasoning that kept me out of the market then keeps me out now: I don't believe in the fundamentals and I'm not a gambler. Full stop.
For those who do, the should buy and hold for the long term to realize the most gains.
But "it's worth a lot more now than it was 10 years ago" is not fundamentals. It's just the irrational assumption that past performance predicts future behaviour.
I don't know how I should feel, but I definitely know how I do feel about having owned 12 BTC that I bought for $300 about 10 years ago and then just traded until I lost it all, instead of just putting it on a usb key and forgetting about it for a while like I should have. Sigh. I did learn a thing or two about trading, so there is that. I learned enough to stop. (Along with the slightly tarnished feeling of having lost about half of it to the mtgox scandal.. also a good lesson, I guess.)
You are saying an 80-85% loss isn't brutal? Man, bitcoin people are way tougher than I am, because losing that much value in my investments would make me want to die. I only lost like 15-20% during the 2008 crash and recovered that and way more over the last 11 years.
Wait, if you bought Bitcoin before 2013, you bought at $20 tops. Was your dad's nest egg $140? Even if that's true, what's so bad about it being worth $120,000 at the peak last year? Even if you got the years wrong, if you bought when MtGox was still active, you bought at a much lower price than even today.
I mean, apart from the fact that you left it on MtGox, that investment had a 6,000x return. What's so bad about that, and why did it "hit you" in 2013? I can't make heads or tails of your comment. How did you manage to lose money buying Bitcoin before 2013?
Nothing says that you were guaranteed a gain. Crypto is so volatile that your gain could have just as easily been a big loss. You should not regret what you could not have known and or controlled. It's very unlikely that most people will get out at the top of an investment. So, your sale was a rational choice.
Also, everyone that sold when you did are also feeling regret of what could have been. It's a fantasy, no one knows the future.
There are better ways to use your time than to regret a fantasy.
I'd be more interested in how many of those who lost (or rather, will lose if MtGox does indeed die) cannot easily afford it. 8 people so far, for instance, have said they lost more than 1000 BTC, which would be over $600k.
I wonder how many of these fall into the following categories:
1. The mined the coins themselves back when it was cheap to mine, or bought them when they are cheap. They are not actually much worse off then before they got into Bitcoin.
2. They put a lot of money into acquiring those Bitcoins. They are going to actually end up a significant fraction of that $600k worse of than when they started. However, they have millions of dollars or dollar equivalents elsewhere, and this loss is not really going to impact their lifestyle in any noticeable way.
3. They put a lot of money into acquiring those Bitcoins, and are going to end up a significant fraction of that $600k behind where they started. That represents a significant fraction of their wealth, and it will impact future plans to live a more extravagant lifestyle, but it won't knock them down to a lower class. They'll keep living where they live, and buying the same kind of luxuries they currently buy.
4. Similar to 2 and 3, but they had most of their wealth in this. They may have to move down a class or two on the social/financial ladder.
5. Similar, but they had so much of their wealth in this that "ruined" would be an accurate description. They basically have to start over financially.
I read a few of your other posts about BTC and your investment. Kudos on the honest reporting of your motivations and hopes regarding BTC - it was interesting to read them, whatever you think of Bitcoin.
This is the best way to take this sort of loss, and hopefully when you think of it over the long-term you have not lost a significant amount of money. At this point it's better to write off the loss as a lesson learned and move on with other things.
But clearly others trusted MtGox. I haven't traded a bitcoin since 2011 so I don't know much about the community past what I'd absorb about anything that's on HN daily. But isn't the claim that MtGox lost like 6% of all BTC in existence? If you think this is going to sail by without impacting the larger community, I think the foresight that led you away from MtGox is failing you now.
People are now $500+ million dollars poorer than they thought they were. That has ripples. That will erode confidence. And my bet is that it will erode confidence.
reply