Hacker Read top | best | new | newcomments | leaders | about | bookmarklet login

If you get hundreds of resumes as a HR specialist for the programming jobs you offer, any claim that there is a shortage of programmers for your company is a big lie.


sort by: page size:

This just isn't true. There is always a shortage of good programmers, and recognizing people who are filtered out by traditional HR practices is a good way for smaller organizations to get manpower. It's a great example of doing things that don't scale.

I call bs on this. Companies are desperate to hire programmers.

That is perfectly understandable. But it isn't particularly practical in today's age of 'infinite programmers'.

The popular narrative is that there is a shortage of technology talent. This is false. All I have to do to get thousands of resumes is put an ad on Craigslist offering $175,000+ for a computer programmer. I can offer $60,000 and get no one. This is a very reasonable expectation (in that the more I'm willing to pay, the more folks are willing to work for me).

The effect of that, which isn't obvious, is that for "good jobs", the kind you would find that are interesting to you and you add real value too, aren't being chased by unemployed programmers they are being chased by every single programmer who thinks they aren't making enough money in their current job. That is where the thousands of resumes come from, people gainfully employed who are tired of not getting any raises for the last 2 to 5 years. They want more.

So when you apply to a company through the 'fire hose', your resume arrives with a zillion others. Chances are you are in a lottery you don't even know, and the 'scoring' system is something like "College, GPA, open source cred, buzzword matches, Etc." Worse the person doing the initial screening might be an English major[1] who is "good with people" and so they are working in HR and haven't a clue as to what makes one person more or less appropriate for an opening.

When you apply to a company by having someone who knows you and respects you talk to managers who are looking, you aren't in a lottery, your in a select short list of people. People where resume details mean less than the fact that you are considered to be "good" by the person who referred you.

So when you find a job that looks interesting, you contact someone you know at the company and let them know you are interested, then you are doing the contacting but you will get a much much higher response rate.

[1] Not trying to offend English majors here, one of my daughters is one, it's that if they end up in a tech company and aren't in marketing or the tech pubs group, they are most likely to be in HR.


Companies should also be very clear about what they're actually looking for. If you're looking for "world class" talent, don't complain about a "programmer shortage".

The fact that there were 600 valid applications (the women applying had code examples to show), basically busts the "programmer shortage" myth.

There are a whole lot of people who can program computers, and who could, with some investment, become valuable assets.


So one of the arguments in that article is, there is no labor shortage because companies get inundated with lots and lots of resumes, but they hire only a very small percentage of those resumes ...

But as anyone who has had to go through those resumes know, the vast majority of the resumes are from people who are totally unqualified for the job .. the fact that employers go through the entire resume pool and are unable to find qualified employees proves the shortage.

And that's just basic qualifications, we aren't even talking about actually knowing how to write good code yet.

p.s. if anyone is looking for a job and is a good java coder with some experience in webapps and GWT, send me a message.


There is no shortage of computer programmers. There is a distinct shortage of _good_ programmers.

No, it is a myth, there are lots of qualified, competent programmers out there:

"But again and again, he points out that qualified engineers do exist, and they’re being shut out of companies for what amounts to a cultural stigma about what sociologists would call “the other.”"

This is the point.

Edit: I think is important say that the "there's a terrible programmer shortage" belief is a myth, in the sense that it is a dramatic story that impels people towards certain behaviors and to say that this myth is wrong, in the sense that it excludes many people, in order to add some kind of sanity to the hiring process.


But programmers are in high demand because of the many artificial barriers that are put up to keep most of them out of work. Just because you have a programming job now does not mean you will make it through the 16 weeks of programming trivia that the next employer expects before considering you a potential hire.

I may agree that it is not a convincing argument for anyone, doing any job, but I'm not sure the programmer part makes any difference.


We can’t possibly be reading the same thing. The post I linked explains that because there is deadwood that never gets hired but applies for every single programming job, every time you advertise for a programmer, you get two hundred applicants, one of whom is decent and 199 are the same 199 that apply for every job.

Therefore, 1/2 of one percent of the applicants for every programming job are qualified and the rest are not. That doesn’t mean that 1/2 of one percent of working programmers are qualified or that you are being especially picky when you reject so many candidates, just that the dynamics of the market ensure that you get a lot of crap resumes when you advertise.

Now, what did YOU think Joel’s article said?


Indeed. Remember, it's companies that can't find programmers, not programmers that can't find jobs.

There's a shortage of programmers. It's more likely they hire someone else in addition to you, rather than instead of you.

I see a similar problem even in software jobs. Employers frequently advertise for highly specific skill sets that almost nobody has. Then when nobody or only fraudulent people apply, they reject them all and claim a skills shortage. The problem seems to be a basic misconception about how transferable software skills are. An excellent programmer with no experience in Python will be out performing a poor Python programmer in a matter of weeks, even though they have had to learn an entirely new language. This idea, however, seems entirely lost on most HR departments, and the result is an almost entirely "fake" skills shortage.

HR personnel don't make hiring decisions for programmers.

HR personnel don't make hiring decisions for programmers.

WRT mythology, one important takeaway about the "1.5 million programmer job shortage" is the management declaring the shortage isn't looking for programmers, or white male programmers, or "rockstar ninja real programmers" but ivy league grads willing to sit thru 8 hour logic puzzle and coding interviews about linear algebra to work for $7.25/hr for minimum 80 hours per week in an open office packed in like sardines while people "work" by playing foozball for 60 hours per week next to you in one of the most expensive cities in the world for next to no stock options in a field rife with ageism where their career will be shorter than a typical NFL quarterback. But other than that, no problemo.

In reality there's no shortage, and isn't going to be one, outside a couple industries in NYC and SV.


I've personally interviewed way, way too many people with impressive-looking CVs that couldn't code worth anything. Some people probably exaggerate their experience and some people I've seen end up in manager/"architect" roles that don't require actual coding and seem to forget how.

Also, when you're hiring, you're getting a skewed picture of the overall programming population. Suppose (to make the math easy) that there are 100,000 programmers in the world, 90% of which are employed. So that leaves 10,000 programmers in the candidate pool. Most of the top 20% of those will be able to get a job from a referral and not go through a "normal" hiring process, so if you're screening resumes you're now down to the next 80%. But that's the bottom 80% of the 10% that's looking for a job. Of those, some are competent people between jobs or looking for a change, but a lot of them are just in the bottom 10% of the overall skill level, are basically unhirable, and are semi-permanently on the job market because of that.

To make another simplification, if you and I both screen 100 resumes in the same area, there's a reasonable chance that the 10 best candidates we see are different since they go off the market so quickly, but that the 10 worst candidates we see are the same, since they stay on the market. And unfortunately, some of those totally unhirable people have good-looking resumes.


The problem isn't filling the rocket scientist shortage with brain surgeon retrains. It's finding the unemployed shelf stacker who's really just 6 months of good training from being you rocket scientist. Otherwise you're just creating a shortage of brain surgeons.

It's VERY hard to find quality developers. I agree with the article that HR is a huge problem, but I'm a hiring manager and I still don't see a great deal of quality.

While it's not as extreme as shifting industry, I recently took the advice from a few HN threads I'd spoken up on and while I'm looking for a PHP developer, I didn't insist that PHP be one of the languages you already know.

Did that work? No. I still didn't get an influx of quality applicants.

I also said in the ad that I was more interested in a cover letter than a resume that shows where you've worked or gone to school, and I'm interested in your Stack Overflow or HN profile. In other words: I'd love to hire a hobbyist.

But none of the 5% of this country's unemployed applied.


Here is the heart of the problem:

<blockquote> Peter Cappelli: Well, the employers, if you look at what the hiring managers are saying and what they’re looking for, they’re not, for the most part, hiring people out of college anyway or out of high school. What they want is three to five years’ experience. So the shortages that they report, the difficulty hiring, are for people who have quite specific skills, and those skills are work-experience based. </blockquote>

Workers without three to five years' experience will never get three to five years' experience. The only way for a young worker to be hired is through corruption, by knowing somebody or lying about their experience. The employers have designed a system to create the shortage that they complain about, and they perpetuate it because everybody's doing it that way.

In any workplace, the grunt workers should outnumber management. It is no different in software. For every software engineer there need to be testers, bug fixers, and doc writers. Yet in the want ads for programmers, it is the other way around. Senior this. Senior that.

The way to fix this situation is easy, but like anything else it will require time and effort. Next to the routine 3-5 year want ad, also post something like this:

Job title: Computer Programmer. Requirements: can program a computer. Compensation: $14/hr or DOE.

You will get plenty of applicants because the economy is that bad right now. Use interviews to determine the best fits for your company. Hire two or three for every Project Manager or Senior anything that you have. Give them raises if they are any good, treat them with respect, and they'll stick around. Three to five years later, you will not only have coders with three to five years of programming experience. The coders will have three to five years of domain knowledge of your company's operations. That might be just as valuable as their coding ability.


>If you relax any of those criteria, you suddenly don't have a programmer shortage anymore.

This is absolutely not true. I am working in SF with a number of electrical engineers working as software developers. I have a degree from a small state college.

next

Legal | privacy