> Do you have any idea how juvenile and tasteless you look in cheap jeans and sneakers? Do you realize how much dramatically better you look with proper shoes and well cut wool pants? To give up that advantage just indicates idiocy to me.
I won't deny that dressing up is a social advantage, but sometimes people care about some things more than strictly getting ahead. It's entirely possible that an individual could place more value on being comforatble than on getting that raise or promotion.
> rarely-worn, extremely expensive and generally inconvenient Victorian-era ceremonial dress
This annoys me. The 'dev-uniform' of t-shirt, jeans and sneakers is just as constraining as the 'business-uniform' of suits and button downs.
You rarely wear one, they are not necessarily expensive, and they are not inconvenient.
Basically, there is nothing inherently better about jeans and a t-shirt, and nothing inherently bad about suits or anything else that isn't in either category. The key is to not expect others to comply to your weird ideas about dress code and let everyone express themselves without stereotyping them.
> I work in a building full of men in shorts and sandals.
You work in a building full of men who look ridiculous. They and their peers may not care, but many do. And what's the point of needlessly alienating others?
I think fashion and the disdain programmers have for it play a role in creating the popular misconception among non-programmers that skilled software people should be very cheap. Skilled professionals dress like skilled professionals. Look at doctors and lawyers. Deal with it or deal with the consequences.
> but there is social decorum that we should follow.
really? In business, politics and law, we tolerate a lot of manipulative, egotistical assholes. why shouldn't the nerds get a break on some things, too? If I can save 20 minutes in the morning by throwing on jeans and a T shirt and not messing with my hair, really, what's the problem with that? why should I waste time/money on dressing nicely?
Really, I think the fact that nerds aren't held to the same level of 'professional appearance' as others of the same pay grade is that manipulating others, generally speaking, isn't our job.
The fact of the matter is, how someone dresses is simply not a good indicator of honesty, skill, or anything else you might actually care about.
I know my first impression, when I see someone in a suit, is "who is he trying to impress? and why can't he do it with his skills, rather than his appearance?"
> really tiresome to see people who just discovered the concept
Curious, were you wearing your higher quality clothing when you made this comment ?
For some, more expensive clothes increases their sense of superiority. I, for example, am less polite and less patient when I have to dress well. It isn't so much of a problem now that I am aware of it.
> Dressing formally puts you in a different frame of mind.
Actually, it makes me feel like I'm talking to a sales person. It is as if dressing up is used to conceal something about the intentions or shortcomings of the person. I probably don't explain it in the right way, but that is more or less the feeling it evokes.
> but I really enjoy the separation between work and home that nice clothes bring.
Holy cow, I follow exactly that principle but never realized it until you put it into words. My office is super casual, but I'm always wearing at least neat jeans and usually a button-down shirt. It feels right even though it's not necessary -- and you finally put my finger on why, that dressing up for work creates separation and room to dress down when not at work.
> I do not have fashion preferences, all that I desire is for the clothes I wear to be comfortable. And I don't give a fuck about the company's dress code, because in the grand scheme of things, they hired me to produce value and not to look good.
I grew up with the same thoughts and just didn't care about dress. Only when studying psychology did I realize why we judge a book by its cover, and have begun trying to incorporate this into my daily life enough to be a better fit in normal society. The problem is that now, since I had to view this from such a technical point of view, as this is something that I don't just 'get' like most people, I am viewed as manipulative by others. Of course, pointing out that they dress to manipulate the opinions of others, just without needing to put as much thought into it because it is something they 'get' doesn't help.
> in much the same way that it would be hard to take a poorly-dressed person seriously
The sooner we can get over this obsession with people dressed "nicely" and instead listen to people who know what they are talking about, the better.
Any monkey can wear a jacket and tie. I hate that society automatically elevates well dressed people the way it does. To me it only signals that they have money.
>you must be impeccably dressed in an expensive suit and tie at all times
Why? What is it about this attire that makes you want to do that.
All I can see is that such dress is an attempt to feel superior over others and that your belonging to such a group would allow for the feeling of superiority without the effort of intellectual advancement?
>I see it as a possible indicator that they are trying to hide their limitations.
Fir myself, I don't know if I see it as that, but I certainly see it as an indicator that they might be the kind of person who judges /other people/ based on how they dress.
I don't care how you dress, but if you care how other people dress, I'm definitely judging you for that.
I don't mind Casual Fridays, but I wish we also had Suit Mondays (or even better, Formal Mondays with morning jackets & dinner dress). Dressing down is fun, but so is dressing up.
And honestly, I don't think fashion has come up with a better look than white tie: waistcoat, bow tie, tailcoat. Flatters the figure rather more than a hoody and sneakers.
> "We wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit you're unfit for startup hacker life."
That puts into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I defiantly wear dress pants and expensive shirts (+ suit and tie for interviews) even when working at a tech startup with 20-somethings in (carefully chosen) worn jeans and t-shirts.
If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics, not excluding the clothes I wear?
> it's just some sub-cultures, teens and troubled personalities that "express themselves" through fashion (the most shallow thing you can do, a juvenile thing in any case)
Are you claiming that dressing to express yourself is shallow and juvenile?
Do you just...buy the first thing you see at Goodwill that fits you? I'm not sure how one could avoid dressing to express oneself, to at least some degree, unless you exclusively wear work uniforms or hand-me-downs.
> to dress like a teenager even as one nears retirement
For some of us this is a KPI of our life/job satisfaction.
I can tell you that if I was in some job that did not allow me to schlep around in hoodies and cargo pants I would be much, much less happy than I am today.
That's actually a great point - the days that I put on a button-up and nice jeans as if I was going into an office are days that I'm way more productive, as opposed to wearing pajamas all day.
>> Ironically my career and I guess wealth/status has progressed exactly opposite to my looks.
A friend of mine is an engineering consultant (software) and looks shabby. He met me for lunch one day after seeing a client and I said "you went to see them like that?" He said it's part of the uniform. It sends a message about being good enough not to worry about superficial impressions. I'm sure in some cases that's true.
> At the CEO level, I'd argue that you must look for people who understand the value of understanding their target audience ("customer") and taking the low cost / low friction action required.
> Or, put simply, spend a couple of hours and $200 on cloths to look the part.
Assembling a $200 wardrobe tailored to appeal to the innate biases of someone hiring based on the clothes you wear is not low cost, low friction, or even representative of many audiences for the kinds of software people write. Also, that you tie looking appropriate to spending a bunch of money on clothes is laughable and goes against startup culture in the first place (when you have little or no money, you mend and thrift your clothes).
> What, exactly, do you think would happen to a 24 year old hotshot banker who goes to an interview at, say, Goldman Sachs wearing Bermuda shorts and a t-shirt?
If your company is aspiring to the Goldman Sachs culture, I will never apply to or do business with it or you.
I won't deny that dressing up is a social advantage, but sometimes people care about some things more than strictly getting ahead. It's entirely possible that an individual could place more value on being comforatble than on getting that raise or promotion.
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