At some point, they will be unwilling to listen to you, so you have to enforce something or else you won't be passing down any values to them.

Kids don't magically know what is best for them. What we do is we force a routine until it becomes routine and then you don't have to force it anymore.

Brushing teeth? Some nights/mornings the kid will simply say no. Wearing clothes? Sometimes your toddler will simply say no. Eating veggies? Sometimes your kid will simply say no.

Whatever you do to get them to change their mind (cajoling, threatening, bribing) is, exactly, forcing your will on the child.

There is no such thing as raising a child without having to enforce some rules.

I don't agree (but I'm not sober!). Your kids will make their own lives, and their own mistakes. Once they're past 12, there's not a lot you can do to shape that trajectory.

My kids were stroppy and rebellious. One became a sort of underground environmentalist, the other became a rather conservative schoolmarm (which to me was a rebellion). They chose to be rebellious; I wasn't responsible for that (except possibly through genetics). At the time, I'd have preferred for them to be compliant, because it would have been more convenient. Now, of course, I'm glad that both my kids turned out to be assertive, confident adults that think for themselves.

Oh yes - kids turn into adults in about 15 years. By the time they're 20, they've either gone or they want to go. Raising kids will only ever be a small part of your life. Even if you find it hard, it's not a life-sentence.

This sounds great but breaks down at implementation. My 5 y/o is not yet equipped with the mental discipline to have this autonomy. We force him to try everything we put on his plate. New foods are introduced in small quantities to prevent wastage, but we fully expect him to try all the weird things he is quite sure he hates. If we gave him autonomy, he’d choose candy and soda.

My view on parenting in general is that the whole point is to teach kids to be independent (and to live their own lives in their own houses). But autonomy is granted as a child learns and is capable of understanding the tradeoffs of decisons. And that is the hard part. It’s very simple to take either extreme: “here’s your dinner, eat it!”; “it’s your dinner, eat what you will.” But I think it’s my job as a parent to teach my kid to appreciate food; to eat a balanced meal; to fill up on veggies and supplement with meat and bread; to drink water over soda; that you can’t skip the salad and expect snacks later; that if you choose to not eat that means you’ll be hungry later (where I typically bring back what we had as dinner as the food option); etc.

Really, I think this whole parenting thing is a crapshoot. But I find comfort knowing I’m helping support some future therapist who can help my kids overcome all of my mistakes. It’s my contribution to America’s future GDP...

> Did you homeschool?

> I don't see what makes changing diapers or keeping infants from killing themselves a very enriching way of spending energy.

> I'm interested in the dinner conversations, weekend activities and holidays, and in nurturing a child's imagination, creativity and character.

With respect, I think you're thinking about this wrong.

The menial tasks of caring for a child (diapers, cleaning, clothing, feeding, etc) are the structure within which you develop a bond, a relationship with the individual. It changes both of you, and by avoiding it, you also eliminate the thousands of moments that build that relationship between parent and child.

As your child grows, those tasks evolve: playing Lego, drawing, listening to their stories, playing dumb video games, taking them to soccer/swimming/music lessons/etc. Lots of stuff that's basically not what you'd really rather be doing, save that your kid wants to do it. Avoiding them again misses an opportunity to be a part of who your child becomes.

Now, this is not to say you need do _everything_. A kid benefits from relationships with family, as well as teachers, coaches, older kids, peers, etc. They learn how to make and maintain friendships, how to be both independent but also open to sharing. That can obviously include a nanny, or daycare providers -- everyone's choices are different, and depend on the child's own needs as well.

But I'd really encourage you to look beyond the dirty diapers, the vomit, the dribble, the food stain on your work clothes, the 3 hours of sleep. There's a lot more to the process than what's visible, and in my experience, it's important, profound, and well worth it.

This is a tough one because I think how we parent is super-strongly influenced by our experiences as a child. I think the keys here are to make sure she knows that you love and support her no matter what and that's as much of a given as that the sun will rise in the east AND to support her on doing things for herself.

It's one thing if you're there to provide encouragement or a bit of help doing something vs. telling her to get it done and walking away. She'll learn the least from having everything on a whim or you doing everything for her. If the answer is "no" discuss why. Be fair and not capricious. Kids are smart. They know the difference between a parent that doesn't care and a parent that's setting limits.

As the parent of a four year old, I hate to break it to you, but this is not commonly true. It is not true for us, and it is not true for any of our friends who have kids this age. The child has their own order in which things are prioritized, and they do not care if that is different from your order. Unless you're willing to let your entire life be dictated by what your child wants to do from moment to moment, it's not going to work to just talk to them about why what they're doing is wrong or unacceptable.

This really resonates. My kid for example has wanted one of these little scooters which you see toddlers riding around everywhere. I've been refusing up until recently when I realized that by denying her access not only am I excluding her from a valuable social experience with her friends who own scooters but I'm quite possibly harming her ability to master and safely ride the thing.

It's important to realize that sometimes when you're saying to your kid "I don't think you're ready" you're really talking about yourself as a parent.

This doesn't resonate with me at all. As a child and teenager I had freedom to effectively pursue whatever I wanted to pursue. I played guitar because I wanted to play guitar. I programmed because I wanted to program. I drew art because I wanted to draw art. I never took lessons I never wanted, nor went to boy scouts, nor pursued organized sports, and all I feel is I was lucky that I had parents that let me dodge those bullets. I also generally did not disobey or ignore my parents because I thought they were reasonable people that told me I should do reasonable things. If they told me, "Clean your room" I might think that an unpleasant activity but I couldn't really dispute that it was good to do even at the time, so I just did it.

My parents forced me do very few things, but I can't think of a major forced activity that didn't feel like wasted time that actively made my life worse. For instance, a terrible cabin trip I never wanted to go on didn't actually help me build character; it just soured me on the outdoors for years.

There is also something to said for developing a kid’s sensitivity to and ownership of their individual intrinsic motivation. If using extrinsic motivation works for your kids, that’s great for you. Deciding on an approach for the child one rears out of concern for a lack of lawyers and doctors doesn’t sound like a sound decision process.

You'd think "well yea, of course" but man do I feel parents rarely do that. The majority, and I really do think the majority, seem to be content just doing nothing with the most valuable years of the childs life.

Perhaps I take that too seriously, but I don't think so. I feel that is one of our largest failings as a society. That and failing to encourage learning, lessons from past mistakes, self growth, etc etc.

In hindsight as an adult, I could better appreciate the occasions where she turned down requests and possibly the reasons why, and there is some value in kids learning that there are limits to what they can get without being offered a detailed explanation in return.

> There's a certain amount of value in being able to guess What Mom Would Say. Mom isn't always going to be there. On the other hand you have to be careful how broadly you apply that. What Mom Would Say about eating berries you haven't identified is pretty good, or going off the grid for 48 hours without telling anyone where you'll be and when to worry.

This isn't really the context in which these things came up in my family. Her stated goal at each occasion was that it's very important that her kids learn that life doesn't always go the way we want. So while we could go to a friend's birthday party, we couldn't go to all of them, and she made the call (perhaps ~ 75% of requests that required a non-trivial expense would be turned down (~25% otherwise), but as a kid it was hard to see the distinction). We knew as kids that we had very little expendable income as a family, and did a decent amount of filtering out requests ourselves. I think our financial situation was a lot more dire than we could appreciate as kids, and this approach was one way my mother kept things sane.

I was pushed pretty hard as a kid and I’m not a very happy adult even though I excelled academically and have a lot of “skills”. All of that pushing made me constantly criticize myself and I still push myself way too hard and feel like I’m never good enough.

As a parent, sometimes I think it’s best to do “nothing” and let my kid enjoy her childhood and do childish things without an enormous amount of pressure to develop all of these skills and “get ahead”. Kids need time to have a carefree life for awhile without adults constantly dumping pressure on them to be prepared for adult life by the time they are five years old.

Because children of that age (and younger) have two traits that will always trump logic:

1. Defiance (better described as a need to understand independence)

and

2. A lack of long-term thinking

When a child - who wishes to experience control - wants a cookie, a choice between a banana and an apple is untenable.

Be wary of interpretations that give you broad-reaching advice on how to essentially manipulate children. This - child psychology and help - is a huge industry; interpreting studies to fit a narrative is simple and rarely meets argument.

Here's the fun part: no matter what you do, she's going to grow and develop on her own schedule. I've raised 5 kids, and every one of them did things differently - and in unexpected ways.

Just be patient, and remember the best thing you can do for your child is to make life fun, engaging and interesting. If you want to help her develop to her maximum potential, focus on reducing stress (not eliminating it, but reducing it). She's going to get enough stress in life without parents fretting over her development. stress is proven to slow development, and contribute to mental illness.

By the way, measure (and CELEBRATE) moments instead of milestones. Moments turn into memories and are a gift she'll cherish the rest of her life.

I don't understand this. Children are simply adults-in-training. That's what they always have been for every species on this planet. It is our job as parents to train them to be the best adults they can possibly be--for their own future benefit. In this world, that means make sure they excel academically as well as socially.

Not pushing your kids is the exact opposite of this. Most kids don't have the motivation to study hard. It's your job to try to instill a love of learning, while at the same time pushing them to try their best in its absence.

This modern idea of childhood as something to be cherished and protected for its own sake misses the mark. Childhood is a very delicate time for a developing child, so great care must be taken. But we need to realize that childhood is only 1/5 of a persons life. We need to make sure we give them the tools in that first 1/5 so the rest of their lives can be as fulfilling as possible.

> That has certainly not been my experience as a parent. They have lots of things to do, but I don't think much of it is important. It's just attention-grabbing.

I think those "important things to do" means "extracurricular activities", that probably isn't so important to you or to me, but we know other parent that doesn't let their children have any time for themself due to those activities, they are.

We're talking about learning a new language, learning to play some musical instrument, or even playing some sport in a local team. Both now and when I was a child I know and knew a lot of parent who stressed a lot, and stressed a lot their child, because they didn't sense them to advance in those activities and pressured them a lot to improve in that.

I do not give false impressions because I tell my children when I am giving them an option or an explanation.

When they are young, you require certain behavior of them so that they can develop healthy habits. Things like "eat your vegetables", "wash your hands" or "don't take your younger siblings toys out of their hands" are mandatory because it is important for children to develop habits of health, hygiene, and pro-social behavior.

I may use positive as well as negative reinforcement, but you cannot expect such behavior out of small children purely through negotiation.

When they are older, you grant them more autonomy but require behavior of them as a consequence of the fact that they are your dependents. As a parent, I am both the owner of the house they live in and their legal guardian. That means that I have latitude to set restrictions on their behavior so long as they are a) residents in my house, and b) my legal wards.

When they are old enough, they are perfectly within their rights to seek emancipation. The goal, of course, is to set bounds that are both sufficiently liberal and sufficiently reasonable that the (older) child will have no desire to seek complete autonomy prior to the age of majority.

The problem that I found as I got older is there's substantially less room for just going with the flow. It worked great for years. Now I have people that I'm responsible to and do it or don't do it doesn't work. I can't just leave it to chance if I sit down and read with my kids daily or cook them healthy foods. Their lives will pass by while I'm wondering around waiting for the inspiration to be a good parent.

So a heads up, that works great when no one depends on you much. It works a lot less great when you owe people things that you really care about.

True, but the parent should be making these decisions as a advocate for the child, and not looking at the child as a resource for their own benefit.

I get that this is not how it's always been done, but if you are lucky enough to live in a time and place where we don't need the labor of our direct children to survive (New Jersey 2021 counts IMO), then you have a duty to act (as best you can) as the child would if they had a fully developed sense of reason and self expression.

Personally, I would be thrilled if my father had supported my development into a grand master.