I'm saying we shouldn't have unjust laws. But since we do, we shouldn't treat them all as slaves. I'm saying we shouldn't have innocent people in prison, but that's impossible to prevent. And since we do, again, we shouldn't treat them all as slaves.
I'm more interested in prison for rehabilitation than I am as punishment. I'd rather we reduce the recidivism rate than bask in schadenfreude. I'm more interested in addressing why we have the highest per capita incarceration rate of any first world nation.
If we only locked up truly guilty people up for truly bad things, that would be fine.
But even ignoring the large number of innocent people in prison; we have a lot of laws that are blatantly unjust. The biggest would be that about half of the prison population is there for minor drug offenses. A guy smoking a plant that makes him giddy and hungry is not worth locking up at substantial cost to taxpayers. Or you have the guy that spent six months in prison because he ordered a hentai comic book from Japan, and the postal inspector thought that the girl that looked 16 drawn in pencil was a real child being harmed. Or you have the elderly black woman who got put into what is essentially debtors prison because she couldn't pay her traffic tickets. Or the guy that got locked up for refusing to pay child support on a kid that turned out to not be his, but the judge didn't care about little things like facts. And on and on and on.
In fact, we have so many ridiculous laws that it's been said that the average American commits three felonies a day:
We put people in prison because of race, because we choose to enforce some laws on people of certain races and not on others. Slavery is allowed as punishment for a crime (see the text of the amendment) and that's exactly what we do with prisoners. When people of certain races are executed by police, the officer(s) do not usually face consequences or punishment.
We're the world's biggest glass house, maybe we shouldn't throw so many stones. We can set a better example by changing how our society operates, we only need to choose to do so.
I completely agree that we overcriminalize things and imprison far too many people in the U.S. I'm 100% on-board with this. It's our shame the way we treat non-violent offenders. A disgrace.
But guys, nothing is ever 100% one way or the other, no matter how much you support it. So you have to look at differing points of view -- unless the objective is just to have a good rant.
Here are the things that come to mind reading this:
- Yep, highest incarceration rates ever. Also violent crime has been dropping to unheard-of lows and the country is safer than it ever has been
- Prisons are not about justice or reform. [insert really long discussion here]. Political systems exist and function for political reasons. Therefore the prison system is made and maintained to keep society together. They don't put the guy who killed you friend in the electric chair because of justice. They do it so you don't kill him yourself, or have a lifelong vendetta against both him and the system.
- This piece is written by a lawyer. Do not expect it to fairly talk about all of the options. It's invective; well-written, emotional, powerful invective. The goal is to make you turn off your brain and feel a certain way. Treat it as such.
- Although this is targeted at lawyers, whatever failings there are? Most likely a result of judges and elected officials -- in other words, the public. If the public wants something, and it wanted harsher sentencing, it gets it. That means changes need to occur with the electorate, not elite legal minds
- If the system is broken, it's broken. Toss out all of that racism stuff, it's a red herring. People shouldn't have their civil rights abused because it's the wrong way to run a country, not because they're a member of an oppressed minority. If you want to win this fight and fix things, toss out every other issue aside from fixing the system. Sure, use various things like incarceration rates among blacks as an argument, but only very carefully. If this is a true problem affecting everybody (and I believe it is), then don't attach yourself to one particular cause or the other. That's just an easy way to lose the discussion.
We desperately need to fix things, but that's only going to happen if we make both impassioned and dispassionate arguments -- and only if we understand the terms at stake. I'm not sure this article helped any, but it damned sure made me angry at how broken things are.
I'm sorry, but you have a terrible conception of Justice.
We should never think that prison "should" be the solution for anything. That's the reason there is 4.5 times more persons in prison per capita in US than in NZ [1].
In continental Europe we tend to consider that prison is there as a punishment for really severe things (killings, sexual abuse, severe drug trafficking etc.) OR a way to avoid reiteration. If there is no risk of reiteration and the damage was light, then fines and other non-socially disruptive punishments are better suited.
And your conception that : private citizens always end up in prison so should government representatives, is wrong. If private citizens always end up in prison, then that's a problem that should be solved... not ampliated by putting more people behind the bars. Your vision almost sounds to me like a bitter revenge : "Hiii, we pooooor citizens always go to jail, they should taste their own medicine". No, the least prison, the better.
The best example of this is your terrible transformation of an important Judicial principle. You wrote : « Better a few government employees behind bars "unfairly" than more than a few citizens behind bars "unfairly". »
Dude. Read yourself. There is no way, people behind the bars unfairly is better than anything. It's the wrost thing. Remember the Blackstone Principle : "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer".
And finally, do not forget that police is by essence making mistakes, it's impossible not to do, because they do something called investigation. If they were only to act in full certainty, then they would almost never act. They gather data and facts about a possible crime, and they have to use force to do that, and then they send all of this to a judge who will decide if there is enough to effectively find someone guilty or not. What you are asking for, is that police only act when they're so certain of the guilt that there is almost no need anymore for a trial. The judicial system cannot work like that. You must allow police force to make mistakes... or we're going to end up with police acting like Judge Dredd.
Which by the way does not mean there is not going to be any punishment, and if they do some really grave trespassing, then they might even end up in prison. It's a question of scale.
I believe it is morally wrong to keep people imprisoned for actions that are now legal, especially given the viciousness of our penal system. This is a great injustice of our time.
I'm quite comfortable but would never advocate slavery for any human being. If anything these prisoners should be paid a minimum wage and funds only released post completion of sentence. A significant % of recidivism is due to being poor and having little to no options from my understanding.
>Because when you break the law and get caught, you give up your freedom to choose.
There is so much injustice with our prison system right now. There are countless people being locked up for their entire lives over petty crimes -- the same crimes that relatively comfortable white boys like me could easily get away with because I can afford a decent lawyer. It's racism and wealth discrimination disguised as justice.
The US is leading the world in incarceration and the privatization of prisons is a big contributor to the problem. Corporations have a financial incentive to incarcerate more people and lobby to keep strict drug laws.
Meanwhile we make jokes and laugh about things like prison rape. I believe we will look back at prison rape the same way we look back at slavery. How barbaric are we that we think that's somehow okay?
For things to change, we’re going to have to change public perceptions and start demanding change. I wish we were a little less eager to deprive people of their most basic right to freedom.
First, I agree that the US has an incarceration problem. We're certainly not perfect, and I think much of the problem is due to the US's drug problem. Regardless, comparing incarceration to slavery is disingenuous as slavery requires no wrongdoing whereas incarceration should require wrongdoing.
As for my comparison of disallowing hate speech to slavery, it is a very valid comparison. The two are morally reprehensible for similar reasons; one is slavery of the body, the other is slavery of the mind. History has shown time and again that what is en vogue today may be hate speech tomorrow.
The primary reason to lock people up is punishment. It's crime and punishment, not crime and deterrence, or crime and reform, or crime and efficient use of taxpayers' money.
Those are all nice-to-haves, but justice is an equal exchange of bad things done by you to bad things done to you.
Obviously. It’s just that I believe the people that would be/are locked up under the current laws (and the laws in my 30ish years of life) deserve what they get.
Conversely, I believe there are a lot of people in the US walking around freely that deserve to be locked up.
Your point is well-taken and I agree insofar as the solution is not to build more prisons.
My point is simply that not punishing people isn't a viable solution, either. France has the same problem as the US (too many people incarcerated) and an equally bad solution (stop incarcerating altogether).
What I'm questioning is your proposed method of achieving that - putting more people in prison - is it likely to help?
Does anybody seriously think that the threat of prison is deterring people from committing drug-related crime? Do you suppose a typical homeless person considers risking being put in jail for stealing to eat to be a significantly worse option than sleeping hungry and cold under a freeway overpass?
Wikipedia has some quite alarming numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St... - one in every 31 adults, one in every 11 African-Americans " behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole)". Surely that's pretty clear evidence that the problems leading people into committing crimes are significantly more powerful than the deterrent of prison time?
Yes, I feel fortunate that I can say such things without being cloth-sacked away.
I'm not exactly pro-prison, but so far I haven't heard any alternatives that I believe would work as a solution to violent crime. I'm open to suggestions. It is certainly the case that the U.S. has too many laws.
Not locking them in cages. The US locks up people at 10X the rate of every peer nation, literally. By my logic, this implies 90% should be free right now, via one mechanism or another.
Never said that. My sarcastic rant was there because locking people up is simply not a good enough solution.
I can guarantee you the vast majority of people in prison can be reformed and reintegrated. But most prison systems don't want that. They work towards punishment/revenge, and as a bonus, give out slave labor for dirty companies.
Suggesting "locking more people up" is a good solution is so bad that it's laughable in my view. It's so short-sighted and simplistic that it's not worth arguing about. Locking more people up translates to locking more poor people up, for the crime of being poor.
I even added a "/s" to make it clear I was being ironic, but clearly that didn't work as I intended.
I'm more interested in prison for rehabilitation than I am as punishment. I'd rather we reduce the recidivism rate than bask in schadenfreude. I'm more interested in addressing why we have the highest per capita incarceration rate of any first world nation.
reply