Yes, bad idea. Significant moral hazard. You'll be tasked with implementing dark patterns in social malware that, despite all the recent criticism, is being used benignly for the most part today.
How would you feel if you knew your work started being used by authoritarian regimes to oppress their citizens speech and ability to organize?
How confident are you that Facebook wouldn't take that opportunity if it was presented to them? Same question, but what if FB's user numbers and usage have declined for a couple years and they are desperately trying to monetize any lingering network effects they can?
They currently have a friendly panopticon. Only the morals of their leadership and PR concerns are holding them back from changing the friendliness.
Hypothetically. Facebook has the capability to be turned into a very evil tool cheaply: they essentially have a surveillance apparatus for a large amount of online activity and history of demonstrating willing to implement features that are user-hostile dark patterns or mislead users about their privacy. I would never want to work there because I don't trust leadership to not pivot into something more Orwellian if their social network has a myspace-style migration and collapse.
> You'll be tasked with implementing dark patterns
Facebook is a large company, and there are other ways to make a difference or learn skills you can take elsewhere. For example, their teams in DC are working on the problems that people often criticize them about. Things like misinformation, foreign interference, security, public safety, etc.
I wish more people understood this. Were there bad people at FB while I was there? Yes. Did bad things happen? Also yes. On the other hand, I also saw good people and good things. I saw massive and frankly very disruptive efforts around privacy and data retention. I saw people fired for violating very stringent rules about handling of user data. I saw a quite-large company's worth of people and resources devoted to detecting harmful or inauthentic content. I couldn't see the content itself (see previous about rules) but from where I sat in the storage org I could see the names of the processing pipelines and know their scope. Maybe those aren't enough to outweigh the negatives, but to ignore the very existence of those people and those efforts does not IMO make for responsible or useful commentary.
A bad idea in what sense? Working conditions and pay will likely be good. What you're working on and what you're contributing to help support may or may not be.
Other people can't supply your moral judgments for you. Some people think Facebook is immoral, others think it's great. Try to reason for yourself about what problems you have with Facebook and whether you want to support them.
This is assuming that you will individually come up with all the most useful insights relevant to making this decision, which is silly.
Just as a very simple example, what if the poster is 22 and this question is about considering their first job? Surely those in the workforce will have all sorts of useful details you could never intuit on your own.
I made the decision years ago that I would never, ever work for FAANG. I think my life turned out just fine :). It's a big world out there full of interesting problems to solve. There's no need to compromise on your ethics for a job.
Some FAANGs are more ethical than others right now. Facebook is probably the worst of the pack, but honestly they do have products I would consider working on (Oculus, WhatsApp).
If you have choices, I guess it depends if you trust Mark Zuckerberg and his vision is something you want to spend your energy on.
If you don't feel comfortable wearing Facebook-branded T-shirts / jumpers, etc if given the choice to whilst commuting to work (if needed), you probably already know the answer don't you?
I don't think any FB employee (Except for Zuckerberg) would be comfortable with wearing Facebook-branded clothes at this time.
this is...very alien to me. i'm 100% certain there are plenty of facebook engineers who are comfortable wearing Facebook branded clothes at this time. i know some.
They can just have a job. Now if you work on the tobacco industry, knowing full well the bad side-effects of tobacco consumption and keep working on it then you don't have any morals.
Linking cement production to global warming issues is at least as strong a connection and similar scale as linking Facebook to whatever bad thing you think they're doing, which is to say, a very vague one.
Cement production is not a vague link to climate change. [0]
> In 2016, world cement production generated around 2.2 billion tonnes of CO2 - equivalent to 8% of the global total. More than half of that came from the calcination process.
I will say that in my current area that's obscenely republican after January 6th I actually started hiding my employment from the general public. After Trump got banned from Twitter and Facebook some groups were making lists of known Facebook and Twitter employees and there were generic threats of violence. The local BLM group that put up some billboards and signs eventually gave up removing graffiti because it would just get vandalized again right afterwards. One of the vandals even got caught in the act and local police refused to even warn the guy.
Exactly. Side-eye from some of my friends was unpleasant, but never enough for me to hide where I worked. But out in public? One need only look around here to see that some people are pretty hostile and closed-minded about the company, and it's not worth inviting their attention.
Are you a working for another FAANG company? There are benefits to working on code at scale. You will learn how to commit code alongside dozens/hundreds of other engineers while minimizing bugs. You will become a better coder because other people will scrutinize and review your code. You will have access to some of the thought leaders in the web development space. You will see how professional software engineers maximize their productivity.
Politics aside, if you are an indie developer or have developed only on small teams, spending a year or two at a FAANG company will often greatly improve your effectiveness as a coder that you can then bring to your own projects or smaller companies. I'd recommend it, but don't get attached to the money and set an exit date.
i'm on a product team. morale is fine. what you should really be asking yourself is if you're comfortable with the WLB. most people work 50-70hrs/wk. TC is good though so you get what you pay for.
in general you're better off asking this question on blind because it's unlikely you'll get a lot of honest/revealing answers here.
A large salary figure doesn't seem like a good reason to work what I personally consider an insane amount of hours. By all means, to each their own though.
We tend to ignore the impact on our physical and mental health these working hours do. I would rather opt for lesser pay, smaller house with my health intact. Better bargain IMHO but then to each his own.
I don't know what team that guy is on, but there's plenty of us who work normal hours with pretty light on call duties. Once you factor in Bootcamp, paternity leave, paid holidays, PTO, sick leave, etc. I'm literally going to be working on a team for less than half of my first year. What's really nice is that depending on how much you're interacting with other people a good bit of the work can be shuffled around and overall it's pretty flexible. I'd rather work 50 hours a week with this kind of flexibility than 40 hours a week under a rigid 9-5 office job.
That's the funny part, my second PSC is probably going to be less than the minimum time due to paternity leave so really it'll wind up being my third PSC because I joined just prior to this half.
Someone who works there will hopefully answer your question directly. I can only give my view
Facebook is easy to criticize because it is top of mind all the time. But unless you see out an org whose mission is focused on making an impact you agree with, all companies are basically equally evil if you dig deep enough. But outside of some regulated industries, they also provide things people want or they wouldn't be in business.
What other options do you have? Can you honestly say that whatever else you are looking at is more ethical than Facebook? It's a shitty fact of life that most money has blood on it.
If you have to ask, probably is a bad idea. There are teams that do good work at Facebook, namely privacy and integrity.
You won’t change the course of the ship but if you pick your team carefully you will have a good impact in the world.
PSC is very frustrating however. Be prepared for a lot of stress and spinning wheels to prove impact as you try to work on meaningful things.
You will receive a lot of hate on the internet for it, some people won’t hear any words coming out of your mouth once you say “Facebook”. That said the internet is a more hateful place then it used to be.
You already suspect the answer and are hoping to be persuaded otherwise. You will be disposable to Facebook while you are doing the work of optimizing dark patterns and empowering display algorithms which are proven to polarize and reinforce beliefs.
On the flip side, Facebook could be a big payday which could be life changing for your family. I'm not intending to judge you, though society might. By that point you're probably part of the 1% so you wouldn't really care.
I'd say if you are looking to join a FAANG company based on moral criteria that Facebook is absolutely the worst offender. The list of its criticisms has its own dedicated Wikipedia page with 439 citations [1]. But allow me to give you a rundown of the worst ones in my opinion:
- Allowing the proliferation and organization of a genocide against Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar
- Same type of thing in Sri Lanka related to spreading violence
- Allowing the mass distribution of disinformation & the corruption of public opinion in the 2016 US presidential election
- The absolutely massive level of surveillance/data gathering
- The release of this data to a political firm (Cambridge Analytica)
- Running emotion/political influence experiments on its users
If you are looking at companies from a moral/mission standpoint, stay far away from Facebook. They are a Pandora's box of ethical problems and have broken every guideline you can name.
P.S. I don't know about morale issues at Facebook related to this but I've read that the younger generation of CS graduates is less willing to work at Facebook and asking recruiters tough questions [2]. For further information on the temperature there it might be useful to check Glassdoor [3].
I don't think it is "bad" to join facebook or any FAANG company. That also doesn't mean I agree with everything they do/say etc. What I know is that as an engineer at almost any level (unless you've already be at a FAANG company) you will learn a lot about scale and delivering. And my guess is even if you have been at another you will still learn quite a bit. And you won't be paid poorly while doing it so not a bad overall situation.
As for moral judgement, only you can make that call, people can be quite polarized about this subject so you'll get people answering that typically feel strongly one way or the other.
people join FAANGs for 15-24 months stints. the morale stuff is very overblown.
some classes of people are privileged enough to care. others prioritize career experience and making money.
not everything you hear is relevant to you. just like you're an engineer in a career partially because pretending to start a company in a garage to $100mm in VC money is not relevant to you, because that garage is not in the wealthiest suburb in a the country, a stone's throw away from Stanford University.
Based on what I have heard, FB is a very demanding workplace. Lots of smart people trying to get ahead and with that comes a cutthroat culture and poor work-life balance. As an engineer you will have access to smart peers, which can make a big difference to your technical skills. Pay is very good, as is the name-recognition, which can both make up for FB's negatives. If you are planning to start a family, look for a less demanding workplace; otherwise, you can't lose much by doing a 2-year stint there.
Parts of it might be cutthroat. Others certainly aren't. Work-life balance isn't really a problem. I certainly never worked evenings and weekends outside of oncall shifts, and my kids loved coming to the office for lunch and that kind of thing.
Some friends who were planning on starting a family "sacrificed" a year or two at a FAANG/FAANG-like and had a nice nest egg/savings before conceiving.
I left FB about 9 months ago and still talk to my friends there daily. Many of them are down in the infrastructure layers, which is 1) where the interesting stuff is, since the top is just a sleazy web app with advertising, and 2) very insulated from most of the political stuff.
It's not a bad idea to join FB as an engineer. Just make sure you end up working on something that you wouldn't get to elsewhere, keep in mind that, like all organizations, it has its own unique pathologies, and set yourself up so you can walk away if you need to.
I don't work for Facebook and have no inside information whatsoever and let me tell you that I would not hesitate go join Facebook if the position was attractive (good salary, good benefits, great professional challenges).
See, there will ALWAYS be controversy in large companies. There was back then in IBM, there was in Oracle, there was in Microsoft, there was in Google and there is on Facebook. If you are trying to find a COMPANY that is a "innocent dove", you will have a hard time finding one that is not an NGO or Non For Profit. Or maybe go into one that is not VC funded and not publicly traded.
There are degrees of evilness though and each one should evaluate their own morals against that. Corporations are going to be inherently evil to us due to their incentives and motives but there are some much worse than others.
I joined facebook as my first job out of college. I didn't really have a plan and they offered the most money.
The good:
There is a huge breadth of stuff to work on and good internal mobility. Whatever WLB, "impact," etc that you want, you can probably find it at fb. Getting tired of working on groups? You can work on some VR project. The tooling is really good so you can spin up whatever you want without having to think about infrastructure too much. They treat engineers well.
The bad:
Morality for sure. Nobody's perfect, but facebook felt especially evil sometimes. Lying to regulators etc is seen as strategic. Not wanting to be outed as an fb employee is definitely true.
Might not be a bad move, think about where the equity will go in the next few years, etc. If you want to start a family and high compensation, it's certainly not a bad move. If you think about the larger picture of what you're doing, I'd think it over very carefully.
Former FB infra SWE here. Like any big company, it depends a lot on exactly where in FB you'd be. Contrary to what already seems to be a popular belief in this thread, not every developer there is directly involved in implementing any of the "dark patterns" or whatever that the company is known for. Damn few, in fact. A tiny percentage. My impression is that on the front end most people are solving pretty generic problems with platforms, frameworks, and interfacing to some very complex back ends. On the infra side it's even less related to the nature of the business. It's generic database stuff, or generic OS stuff, or generic storage stuff, or whatever, only at very high scale.
The social/moral issues do take their toll, both as pangs of conscience and the general unpleasantness of people acting like everything Facebook ever did was 100% predictably bad and you're personally responsible. There are also certain pathologies in how planning and evaluations and promotions work. On the other hand, the work is generally very interesting and the opportunities for learning/advancement are huge (though I'd caution that some of what you might learn is very FB-specific). Also, one on one, people at FB are generally very smart and quite nice. The managers in particular really Get It when it comes to supporting engineers. So a lot depends on how well you can "build that wall" between the work and the company as perceived from outside, or whether you even want to do that.
P.S. Don't read anything into the fact that I'm "ex" because 90% of the reasons were specific to my own circumstances.
Honestly, as a hiring manager, at this point I'd say it's a negative on your resume. I'm sure I'll get downvoted for saying that, and not everyone would agree, but I think it's headed into "Big Tobacco" territory, being a job that pays well but carries a lot of stigma.
I’m surprised. I worked at a medium sized software company and a few weeks after I left had emails from Google and FB. Never announced publicly I had left my job. Made me think that there is a black market where an HR employee sells info of recently departed devs.
I assume you also have negative views of veterans, anyone who has worked in most agricultural situations, sold bottled water, carbonated drinks, food supply chain, loans, etc.
What's the sample size behind that claim? One? Sure, there are some hiring managers who will (a) believe Facebook is significantly more evil than other companies, (b) attach a moral stigma to every employee of a very large company regardless of their role or time elapsed since, and (c) prioritize the social/moral result over technical qualifications in a hiring decision. But they're not anywhere near a majority, not least because such behavior borders on professional malpractice and in some cases might even be illegal (as blackballing). That's a much bigger red flag than having Facebook on your resume.
While we're sharing anecdotes, I retired from Facebook in September. My LinkedIn profile says so. And believe me, it sure doesn't seem like that has discouraged recruiters or potential hiring managers one bit. Despite all the rhetoric, when it comes down to dollars and cents most employers still seem to see it as a positive.
It depends. Facebook is a pretty good employer. It’s done some bad stuff. It also gets way more flak for doing the same stuff everyone does. For any problem with Facebook you hear about, there’s a team of people working on fixing that problem, and you can be on that team if you have the right skill set. On some of the issues Facebook gets criticized for, it’s already doing a better job than most (this is based on my experience working other places). Because Facebook is already cast as a villain in the media, it’s not going to get credit for that. How much will that bother you? Personally, I find it fulfilling to be helping to solve important problems, and I recognize that the bad press was earned by past conduct. It’s somewhat refreshing to work in a place where the risks of negative effects to society are openly confronted, instead of being afraid to bring them up (I don’t think I ever heard my coworkers ask those questions at my past jobs).
Some people respond negatively when they hear I work for FB, but their opinion turns when I give a bit more detail about what I do there. In that sense, I don’t think it’s harmed me socially.
The fact you have to ask already shows a conflict. I believe it really boils down to 'are they offering enough compensation to be ok with being associated with them'. And that's a personal decision only you can make.
Current FB employee. Former Employee @ a couple of other FAANG spots and a health care startup that promised to revolutionize the world, delivering medical attention to developing countries.
Facebook is a good place to work. They take care of the people. Benefits are great. None of the stinginess of Amazon. Apple was awesome too, btw. But FB is very employee first. Dark Patterns ? I don't know of too many teams that work on such stuff. When you go through bootcamp, make a selection that you are comfortable sleeping on. I did. And I am ok with that. Don't base your decisions on your neighbors' morals. Ask yourself how you would feel. I am comfortable with the choices I've made.I can go to sleep peacefully.
Worst case : Learn, move on if it doesn't work. Grow there if it does.
The worst place I worked at ? The health care startup revolutionizing the world. Terrible man/woman management all under the pretense of "Changing the world is hard work". I left bitterly disappointed with my experience.
How are you going to change the world , when you can't even be reasonable, kind and nice to fellow co-workers ?
heh. I was approached by a FB recruiter last week after taking some time off and having 20 years hopping off and on a couple FAANG + .gov and .aero to round things off. The morality issues of Social I don't believe is any more fucked up than working other FAANGS that we all love to be haters upon because at the end of the day, we're all prostitutes - straight up selling ourselves for money.
If we weren't, then why would be working for anyone or trading skill/our time and labor to someone else for a negotiated amount. One of which we can never purchase directly again and sadly is way disvalued in general.
But that said, if you've never worked at a Fortune 500, then you should regardless. It lends street creds that you've dealt with the corporate politics and endured the stack ranked rat race and how well you did with it.
My own questions about FB tho, that's another story. Since I'm SRE, i'm wondering: would I make a difference anymore than I have already? It's one things to say you keep the internet turned on at scale. It's completely different having done it for two(+) decades and know their place in the org chart relative to VP/SVP of your corporate division and theirs within companies with 30-100k+ people.
For those that have worked at FB, we hear the stories and we all know the problems we generate for our neighbors from gentrification as well as our peers just in enacting the will of our management chains, making "the right thing" harder to evangelize without risk or fear.
So why should anyone that's not a intern/college grad/entry level person work there that's not hooked on something special?
As everyone has said, it's just a website run on commodity gear... just at scale. Why pay the fucks to work there if you've already done annual doxing and close knife work necessary to not be at the bottom of the bell curve for the stack rank? Nobody is safe anymore unless you've made connections in college and elsewhere. An average IT career is 2 years so why do it beyond whoring and resume building?
You will likely be surrounded by people who don’t care about the bad press, or actually believe in the mission to “connect everyone” or w/e. It’s unlikely team morale at fb is actually bad.
However, if you are the type of person who has a strict moral compass, it will probably eat at you until you need to leave. From personal experience, I worked at a unicorn where everyone I worked with believed we were making the world a better place while on the inside I knew we were absolutely not. It’s a very alienating feeling that might drive you to hate your job.
There is no moral stance in big tech. You are a cog in the machine which in any moment can turn to weapon against humanity. If you can rationalise your consciousness out of this, you will find collectivism in a worst form - collective corporatism.
The future belongs to corporations. People are spineless and will succumb en masse. May be its wise to belong to FAANG clan. You will have food, money and prestige.
Or may be is time to join the resistance. :)
Of FAANG, working for F or G appear the most unethical and immoral because of the systemic and ubiquitous damage they exact on individuals and society by maximizing monetization through manipulation, amplification of hate, divisions, and atomization of people from one another, and trafficking in personal data (privacy). These factors are more important than given an ability to design your own role in any department, and making $300k to $2M per year. As such, I could not live with myself if I joined such a dystopian leviathan. I don't see how anyone can honestly rationalize, overlook, or refute the above unless their guilt/shame, cognitive coherence, and/or moral courage are currently insufficient to do what they know is necessary to preserve their integrity.
Can't someone find a better organization that does net good for humanity, or at least doesn't cause as much harm? Netflix, Hulu, Plex, Tesla, SpaceX, etc. or Kiva, Goodwill, DWB/MSF, etc.
