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Microsoft Says the Days of Free Windows 7 to 10 or 11 Updates Are Over (www.tomshardware.com) similar stories update story
49 points by thunderbong | karma 96016 | avg karma 7.63 2023-09-30 06:35:26 | hide | past | favorite | 89 comments



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It's not like I'd be using Windows 11 on a PC if it weren't a free upgrade. I keep one Windows machine in the house because it's handy for tests for things that need to work in Windows and because lots of my colleagues use Windows and sometimes I need to check something I am not going to try on my corporate-issue Windows laptop.

OTOH, Windows usually comes for free on PCs (not all offer discounts for not running Windows).


You pay for Windows when you buy a no-OS PC because the manufacturer still had to buy the license from MS.

Did the manufacturer had to pay or did Microsoft had to pay the manufacturer?

Manufacturer pays MS a Windows license fee for every system sold, regardless of OS.

IIRC, they could pay a higher fee per system actually sold with Windows, or a lower price for every machine sold, regardless of OS.

Remember Microsoft IP infects everything, from SDCards to EFI/UEFI.


Some vendors offer a discount if you buy the laptop with Linux instead. See System76.

Those vendors don't have a license agreement with MS. But Dell, Lenovo, etc do.

So vendors exist that do not have a license agreement with MS. I rest my case.

I already knew that, we weren't at odds. There is no "case"

The case is that there are indeed computers you can buy that are not, in fact, eating the cost of a Windows license, because OEMs exist that do not have those agreements with MS. "You pay for Windows when you buy a no-OS PC" is not true if said no-OS PC didn't have to eat the cost of a Windows license.

It's coming...OS as a subscription.

It's never too late to switch to linux.

Yeah. That's where I'm headed eventually. I was going to say that in my upthread comment but didn't want to get distracted.

I've used MS and Apple in the past, but both are privacy threats at this point. My next hardware update will be a made-for-Linux machine.

Shame on me already.


OS as a subscription is not a dumb idea. Not that I like it, but with security updates, hardware support, etc... an OS requires constant maintenance. And if you don't update, often thing start to break down as apps drop support. It would be fine offline, but you can't do much offline today.

But that's not it. Windows 7 still works, in fact, all Windows versions still work if you still have the hardware (or VM) for it. It is just that upgrades from Windows 7/8 are not free anymore. But that's normal, major upgrades are rarely free. The free Windows 10 to 11 (previously 7/8 to 10) path is the exception here, because Microsoft really want as many people as possible to essentially beta test the latest version of Windows.


You’re right, OS subscription isn’t a bad idea.

It’s a horrific, intrinsically anti-user idea that should be loudly and aggressively smothered every time it rears its ugly head.

There is no version of reality where OS-as-a-service does not become a n irreversible hostage situation, leaving users at the mercy of “line go up” corporate self-enrichment. We’re practically there already.

Look at the trajectory of IoT products. Even if you pay extra for a product that is sold as no-subscription - like the PHILIPS Hue line for example - one day you will inevitably discover the hardware that you already paid for is being held hostage until you accept the new Terms of Service and pay a subscription fee.

This isn’t hyperbole - it has already happened dozens, even hundreds of times.

OS-aaS is a cute idea for a world where the free market is working correctly, bolstered by strong consumer protections and effective enforcement of regulations.

There must be a line.


The situation in mobile is already worse than an OS subscription.

Imagine if I get screwed by Microsoft. I can always install Linux or some other OS on my PC.

With mobile, even if I don't pay monthly for the OS, after a few years, the OEM discontinues support and the only option if some hacker didn't build a custom ROM for my specific device is to buy a new device or see my system slowly break down as apps drop support, and that's without considering security.

So we are already being "taken hostage" without an explicit subscription, and in a way that encourages throwing away perfectly good hardware and produce e-waste.

The locked down hardware is the real big problem. A paid OS subscription on an open hardware platform is bad, but a "free" OS on a closed platform is worse, because while you are hostage in both situations, in the former, you still have usable hardware.

IIRC Philips Hue supports zigbee, so you are not completely hostage. With an open zigbee controller, you still have working light bulbs, you can stop using Philips subscription software. Inconvenient, but you don't have to throw away your lightbulbs.


If we're going to pay then will MS cut back on the ads? Upsells? And digital colon probing?

Or are we going to pay to be violated? And told to like it?


The issue is, if you stop paying, does that mean your hardware stops working? That your files are no long accessible?

There's also a not-so-good incentive of the manufacturer not having to worry as much about QA because it's a given the fixes / maintenance is going to be paid by the subscribers. That is, no sense increasing quality if the lack there of doesn't effect margin and perhaps is even rationalized as justifying the subscription model.


That may be the selling point of Windows 12. Because fuck you, that’s why!

Isn't commercial support already kinda that? See some players in Linux world.

It is not that weird of an idea. As vendors of OS, must keep putting real effort in their products. And that isn't free. So either they can sell copy one time or then sell subscription.

Sad thing is that Windows has been extremely cheap for amount of use you can get out of single licence. Years of 24/7 use...


Title should have been upgrades, not updates.

I don't know, for me each one has been a downgrade of the things I value most in an OS.

Not saying a bunch of stuff wasn't upgraded, it just wasn't stuff I cared about (except security patches, but those just felt like mafia tactics -- "I'd hate it if something happened to your pretty little system.")

I'm currently on 10 on my one Windows computer and will be there until they stop patching security, which I guess isn't too far off.


so my Win11Pro OEM will no longer freely upgrade to Win12Pro?

FTFA: "However, Windows 10 keys will continue to be valid for Windows 11 installs."

As someone who is keeping Windows 10 and skipping over Windows 11, I'm wondering if my Windows 10 key will be usable to freely upgrade to Windows 12. Assuming Windows 12 is worth installing...

This isn't possible to answer - as we don't know if Windows 12 will ever be released, what it will cost, or any of the upgrade terms.

Windows 11 is in almost every way (except for the Scarlett Johansson voice) the exact same as Samantha from the 2013 movie "Her".

There is simply no better way for me to express exactly what I mean. It gaslights, assumes, auto-updates, blames the user, and really eventually leaves you in an abused state where you think you need it, just because youre so used to its complications and way of doing things that everything else seems backwards.

See people switching to Linux from Windows who go "I tried installing this program by downloading and running it from AwesomeSoft.co.uk.com.to and it complains libraries are missing! This OS sucks, why isnt there just an installer?".

So, I hope people learn to see that the OS is designed to be abusive, unless you have the entreprise-y versions, and stop praising it. Is there really anyone who is upset that its now no longer nagging you and using bad UX to trick you to upgrade to Windows 11?


The push to upgrade to Windows 11 is so aggressive that I turned off the fTPM on my machine in the firmware so that Windows 10 won’t try to upgrade to Windows 11 because "my computer does not meet the minimum requirements".

Sad that’s the only way to tell Microsoft to fuck off.


I tried the above method, but I didn't see any change in Windows update.

What seemed to work for me was a group policy (requires local admin, and probably the non-'home' version of win10):

gpedit > Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Windows Update > Windows Update for Business > Select the target Feature Update version

Then, set "product version" to 'Windows 10', and "Target Version" to '22H2' (or whatever you want).

Seems to work; after that, the Windows Update pane will say "Some of these settings are managed by your organization", and (for me, so far, at least) there isn't any more browbeating for Win11 installation.


Agreeing with placesalt here. I did the same thing and haven't been bothered for a Win11 upgrade once.

> Sad that’s the only way to tell Microsoft to fuck off.

Lol. The way monopolies work is precisely like this. You will have fewer ways to ask them to fuck off.


>It gaslights, assumes, auto-updates, blames the user, and really eventually leaves you in an abused state where you think you need it, just because youre so used to its complications and way of doing things that everything else seems backwards

Would be nice if you provide some evidence for those claims. Also, easily with the personally targeted sweeping generalizations there bucko. No need to start a holy war on some people just because of their OS of choice.

Who do you think you are, the OS police? What other people use on their computers shouldn't be your concern. You use your favorite OS, let other people use their favorite OS.

Trying to crusade, insult or gaslight people into feeling inferior or below you just for using an OS you hate and not using your desired OS, only has the opposite effect, they'll just hate you and most likely your OS too, out of spite, because of your toxic attitude on judging people by their OS choice.

Sadly because of attitudes like that, Linux still has a bad image, as many normies still associate it with nerds and toxic communities and users who beret them just for "still using Windows" and they should "just RTFM". The truth is, you always attract more flies with honey.

>See people switching to Linux from Windows who go "I tried installing this program by downloading and running it from AwesomeSoft.co.uk.com.to and it complains libraries are missing! This OS sucks, why isnt there just an installer?"

What exactly should they do? Learn to use install and use another OS from scratch with different apps, or how to emulate their favorite apps, or just stick to the OS they already know well and get on with their lives? Lives which don't revolve around distro-hopping and learning how to install and use new OSs and new apps.


> Would be nice if you provide some evidence for those claims.

Is this a joke? Windows is notorious for ramming updates down a users throat, whether they want them or not.


But where's the "gaslighting and blaming the user" that your grand-parent was talking about?

As for the aut-updates, for my parent's PC, I'm glad it auto-updates, otherwise they would never update and leave them vulnerable. What's wrong with that? Do you want the latest security patches or not? It's not like I can convince my parents to run sudo pacman -Syu every week.


security patches are one thing.

Having drivers for my hardware broken/corrupted because Windows thinks it knows better, is another.

Having to download a third party program to clean up said driver mess before/after I can update any of my components, is another.


>Having drivers for my hardware broken/corrupted because Windows thinks it knows better, is another.

Never had that happen though. Ever. WHQL drivers in Windows repos are usually bulletproof which is why they're usually a bit older. It's only when you go and manually install other non-WHQL drivers, that you might run into issues from the lack of testing.

Not saying it couldn't have ever happened to you or anyone else an account of the millions of permutations of possible hardware combinations, but in my experience I never had driver issues from auto-updates since Windows 7 on a variety of desktops and laptops.


Auto-enabling telemetry after each update seems already fitting to a gaslight definition.

Not letting me to delay updates is just another level of disrespect. What if I am writing DVD at that time or doing something else without ability to stop and continue? If your parents don't use bitcoins on that Arch setup while sitting on Internets with no router - they don't need to do system update that often.


> Auto-enabling telemetry after each update

It doesn't do such a thing. But let's not allow truth to get in the way of a good narrative.


HN threads on Windows are just a massive dogpile of FUD.

>Not letting me to delay updates is just another level of disrespect.

False. You CAN delay updates. Though, I never do because for security and performance I like to be up to date on the stable branch. Same with 99% of users out there.

>What if I am writing DVD at that time or doing something else without ability to stop and continue?

What are you talking about? What work interruption? When was the last time you actually used Windows 11?

Minor windows updates happen in the background while you can continue doing your work like burning DVDs, and major Windows updates will prompt you that the updates will be applied the next time you re-boot or shut-down, but that will happen at your discression, again, without interrupting your work.

I feel like you might be stuck in a 2013 time loop back when Windows 10 was force-rebooting your PC for updates while users were working.


I'm happy with Windows 11. I'm running it right now on an ARM laptop.

I got a call from my brother yesterday. He wanted to know how to "fix" his iPhone. He needed to install an app to buy tickets for an upcoming trip and the app said that he "must update to iOS 15.1 or higher".

Somehow, even though he thought he was keeping his phone up-to-date, he missed a couple of years worth of updates.

I don't think trying to help users update is user hostile.


You can delay updates and you can schedule when to restart.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/manage-updates-i...


Ramming updates down people’s throats is what it takes.

Windows is full of questionable decisions, but being aggressive with applying (security) updates isn’t one of them.

Also, don’t like updates being rammed down your throat? Apply them yourself.


If security updates were separate from a bunch of downgrades masquerading as updates, people would apply them more often.

Any example of downgrades that you got from updates? Don't know what updates you got but for me they al came with upgrades, not downgrades.

It’s not just security updates though is it? It automatically pushes unwanted feature updates.

I had a powerful windows development system running windows 11 pro. I would RDP to this system to work, a while back it wouldn’t connect. The machine was online but I could not RDP into it. I physically went to the machine and connected a monitor to see what was going on. I was presented with a screen urging me to create a Microsoft account to log in locally with. This is what prevented me from getting work done. An advert for a Microsoft account.

That was the last straw for me, I replaced windows on that machine the same day.


>It automatically pushes unwanted feature updates

Unwanted for who? Maybe a lot of users actually need the newer features that get shipped.


https://static1.howtogeekimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/upl...

I just had to help someone out who was clearly over his head using Ubuntu (a Ph.D. student) after he clicked "yes" to one of these popups, updated his to the next major version, and broke all his python-based installed software he needed for his project.


Yeah, Linux isn't for everyone to daily drive, unless you're ready to invest in learning and tinkering, and secondly , that's why you should use things like python virtual environments and containers.

If their favorite apps only run on Windows and Windows is no longer a viable solution, the logical conclusion is that they need to switch to a viable operating system and give up on their favorite apps and try out new ones.

The only alternative is to cling to an old, unsupported, insecure version of Windows, until there is no more hardware that can run it and they need to migrate anyway. I’m really not interested in providing support for people that choose that option so it doesn’t bother me in the least.


>and Windows is no longer a viable solution

yes, but that's for each individual user to judge for themselves whether Windows is still viable for them or not, not you or the HN mob.


Well I was gonna propose each HN user go door to door and began seizing peoples computers and forcefully installing ubuntu on them.. but shucks, maybe we should stick to just telling people how awful Windows is and that valid options that let them still play games exist and are free.

Excuse me sir, would you have a moment to discuss about our lord and savior, Richard Stallman?

As long as those users do their own tech support, don’t cause trouble on my internet due to the unpatched security holes in their ‘viable’ operating system and don’t demand the apps I use are dragged down trying to limp along with their obsolete systems, they can do whatever they want.

Why not pay someone to port your favourite apps over to another operating system>

Why not use them on the operating system they already work on?

My assumption is that "their favorite apps only run on Windows and Windows is no longer a viable solution"

That was a hypothetical scenario. How are you gonna pay Adobe to port their stuff to Linux?

This is the downside of single-vendor proprietary solutions.

Sure, but a lot of those single vendor proprietary solutions put food on the table for a lot of families and businesses.

I have aa friend who makes a living by being a tech youtuber in my country. He's deep in the Adobe ecosystem and used to rock Ryzen + Nvidia PCs for video workstations and switched to Mac Studios.

He knows how to use Linux but he said he's not gonna put the livelihood of his company and family on jerry-rigged solutions of Linux + FOSS video editing software, and instead just pays Adobe their king's ransome for that piece of mind and security.


> a lot of those single vendor proprietary solutions put food on the table for a lot of families and businesses

Did I say otherwise?


I mean it does suck in that regard...

As a Linux user, I'm actually amazed people use anything else. I do understand the need for proprietary stuff so I also own some Apple devices but when I work on my Linux systems, I'm happiest.

Every time I sit at the computer it's a "zen garden" type experience.

Yes there are bugs here and there but a bit of patience helps and, because it's open source, you can even contribute to maintaining the zen garden, which is also beautiful.


> because it's open source, you can even contribute to maintaining the zen garden, which is also beautiful.

I don't want to be forced to do that whenever I find something missing, though. Sometimes I'm just trying to get something done and don't have the time to dive into an unfamiliar project and recompile parts of my system.


When you find a bug on windows, which, for me, is about once a week or so, the only thing you can do is open their Feedback Hub app and report it.

In open source software, you can report it and get feedback on your report, and even see progress/timeline (or lack thereof) of it being fixed. The fact that you can say "well i can tell this is a one line fix, let me just PR it" is just an added bonus.


On Windows, the entire world can collectively report a glaring deficiency and not have it fixed for years. See taskbar labels.

On Linux it varies widely by software, but a ton of maintainers don't have time for your issue because they're busy fixing their own, and they expect you to fix your own as well.

Neither one is perfect.


You’ve clearly not used Linux for sometime. I’ve not had to compile anything for years to fix my systems

Things have improved a lot.


...you have to recompile the binary in order to incorporate changes you have made to the source code.

As for the last time I used Linux, it was just earlier this year when I tried Fedora Silverblue. The Nvidia driver just Broke when I swapped motherboards, and since the system is immutable, I couldn't even attempt to debug or fix the problem.

Of course, immutable distributions are the only ones that have that specific problem, but I haven't found a distro yet that doesn't have some problem.

I will admit, though, that GNOME Wayland is a better DM than Windows, for sure. And its trackpad support is comparable to macOS. (As in it has plenty of convenient gestures, supports right-click-drag, which Windows does not, and even supports middle-click-drag, which neither Windows nor macOS do.)


Linux and nvidia have had a strained relationship, nvidia did announce they are finally open sourcing the driver mid-2022 (partially iirc?) so your experience may be better now since nvidia is kinda playing nice but I haven't check the progress on it.

> nvidia did announce they are finally open sourcing the driver mid-2022 (partially iirc?)

IIRC, the new driver is "open source" because they moved the important bits into the firmware


Honestly, if that's what it takes, I'm all for it. Cheers to a future of being able to use the most powerful piece of hardware in a PC without having to redistribute proprietary blobs with the OS.

> "I tried installing this program by downloading and running it from AwesomeSoft.co.uk.com.to and it complains libraries are missing! This OS sucks, why isnt there just an installer?

The Linux model would never scale to the vast quantity of existing Windows software.

Instead of the Python foundation creating one universal Linux Python installer, you have each major Linux distribution needing a package manager for Python. Good luck if you use some obscure software.

In a way, containers are exactly what Windows installers are - one self-contained universal way of running a piece of software, packaged by the creator.


I think it scales perfectly well, which is why it's kinda normal to have a couple thousand software packages from different vendors in a Linux system, while it is rare to have more than a couple hundred on a Windows.

There is also this huge tendency for everything to become a "software suite" which tries to do everything and the kitchen sink in Windows and app store OSes while you can still find "do one thing" packages in distros.


There isn't one Linux model for installing software. There's your package manager, sure, and I'd agree not everything can (or needs to be) in there.

We have flatpaks and snaps. We also have AppImages. The last one feels the most like the experience I had in my Windows days just downloading software from random websites, except it's still better than Windows, because it doesn't leave random garbage all over my system and require a potentially buggy uninstaller to remove.

Ten years ago I wouldn't have advised most people to run Linux on their desktop. Windows has gotten worse since then and Linux has gotten better. If we assume your hardware is 100% supported (basically you're using a desktop PC or a laptop model with explicit support), and you don't need any Windows-only apps... I don't see why Linux wouldn't be the better choice.


> I don't see why Linux wouldn't be the better choice.

It's pretty easy to get Linux in an unusable state (for a regular user). Windows it's much more resilient to various kinds of errors, including user errors.


That doesn't exactly line up with my experiences. I have generally had to actively work to avoid Windows from messing itself up. That or put in work to get basic functionality working. A regular user isn't going to be able to do that.

It feels like I've been reading the same laments since Win95. The specifics of Microsoft's bad practices may have evolved, but the fundamentals seem the same.

In 2023 I can install Debian without messing with XFree86 configs or dealing with kernel modules. Modern Linux desktop systems just work, out of the box. Of course there are still a few hiccups here and there and I probably minimize their magnitude because of my familiarity. However, I don't spend hours futzing with it like I did as a kid in the late 90s. Linux has come a long way.


One of the reasons I enjoy a Linux desktop is that the fixes for common issues aren't usually arcane - they are reasonably easy to understand and usually make sense. There is very little "Run the troubleshooter" type fixes that are more or less placebo.

I misread the title. In case you did as well:

MS had a program to allow Windows 7/8 keys to be used for Windows 10/11. That program officially ended seven years ago, but the servers kept working, so you could keep using Windows 7/8 keys for the newer versions. MS is turning that off.

While I don’t at all like what they’ve done with Windows, it’s not related to the article.


This would have been a very desirable move if we were collectively at Windows 7 still.

You want me to pay to go to windows 8 or beyond? And you promise not to download the 9 GB installer in the "background" on my slow rural correction if I don't pay? Ha ha ha ha ha ha, hard no!


If only there was some affordable subscription to keep Windows 10 updated forever and turn off Windows 11 notification.

It's called "buying an enterprise key for five dollars"

maybe the revenue can support the development of usable huge pages

In related news, it's safe to install windows 7 again.

Honestly I only use windows because of games. But now valve is doing enough with proton and Linux that I think it will be a thing of the past. And then I can uninstall this absolute crapware of an OS from my PC. It is genuinely user hostile.

However, updates from Windows 7 to Linux Mint Debian Edition 6 are still free.

https://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php


In my opinion, Windows 7 is 'Peak Windows'.

If you have the best Windows already, why on Earth would you downgrade to Win 10 or Win 11?


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