I used to be a huge mechanical keyboard user and advocate (model m and apple extended ii), but in the last year I've switched to the modern Apple chicklet style keyboard. In my personal experience, I can type much faster and they still have enough tactile feedback to be accurate and satisfying.
The biggest problem with a Model M: it doesn't translate very well to portable use :) I enjoy using it when I can, but have an X1 with a traditional keyboard that works well enough (I'm also used to Chiclets).
I would love to see laptop makers innovate more on tactile keyboard feedback.
I use a Happy Hacking Pro 2. I think the tactile feel of switches are a mater of taste, and I'm not inclined to hard sell you on my preference.
Aside from a pleasant feel and sound, the keyboard's compact size makes it an ideal travel companion. It also has a control key where a caps lock key is found traditionally.
Also a HHKB Pro 2 user here. Absolutely one of the best things I've ever bought. Apart from the excellent Topre switches, the small format factor is perfect as you don't need to move your hands from the home row to hit any key (Fn key with your right pinky opens up F# keys and numerous handy shortcut keys like /, *, + and -, and of course arrow keys).
They are expensive keyboards, but when you spend your entire working day and then some on a keyboard, there's no reason not to splash out a little. It has lasted me a couple years already and it's still perfect. Considering buying a Type-S for home to see how that is in comparison to the standard model.
I learnt to type on a Model-M growing up in the 90s (on my father's IBM clone) and decided to buy one again 5 years ago for nostalgic value, but was astounded by how comfortable it was to type on.
After switching over to a Macbook as my main computer last year, I found it difficult to cope: my Model M didn't have the Mac keys, and Apple keyboards aggravate an RSI I have.
I managed to find a Model M with Apple keys (including media keys) made by Unicomp [0], and it is -- by far -- the best keyboard I've ever seen or used.
A keyboard is a highly personal choice, so everyone will give you a different answer. That being said, while the feel of the keys on a model M is second to none, there are a couple of things which really annoy me when you take the keyboard in as a whole: first it's _loud_, forget about using it with people around, they'll most likely be annoyed. And second it takes up a huge amount of space on your desk.
Personally there is a keyboard which I find better than a Model M, a Cherry MX5000 (http://www.geek.com/chips/cherry-mx-5000-auction-1491235). Yes, it goes for ridiculous prices when you can find one, but it's a unique keyboard in that it combines three characteristics, it's a space saver keyboard (if you leave out the numpad), it's got an excellent and highly adjustable ergonomic layout, and it's mechanical (brown MX switches). The feel of the keys isn't as good as a model M, but on the whole I enjoyed using it more.
That being said, while I have an MX5000, it's stored away and I just end up using the keyboard on my Thinkpad (the new Lenovo island style keyboards are slowly growing on me).
It's fun talking about keyboards because they invoke a near fetishistic fixation with people who spend their days using one, but in the end it's just a personal choice.
I use Model Ms, though on my main dev machine I have switched to a Leopold with Cherry MX Blues. I find the actuation force to be more balanced between keys, and a more pleasing curve overall.
There are several alternatives to the Model M's "buckling spring" switches. They all have a different feel and in the end it comes down to personal taste.
* Cherry switches. These come in several varieties. Many manufacturers use these, Filco is probably the best. Be careful, many gaming keyboard use the Cherry "black" and "red" switches which are non-tactile and not very nice to type on (though gamers apparently like them).
* ALPS-type switches. Common in old keyboards but rare today. Mattias uses these.
* Topre's switches. Also by the Happy Hacking keyboards. Topre has some keyboards with variable key weighting, which is reportedly very nice if you've learned traditional touch typing.
I use a plain cheap Cherry G80-3000 keyboard with "Clear" switches. Build quality is less than a Model M, but I love the key feel.
You quickly learn the difference between a PS/2 to USB CONVERTER which converts PS/2 to USB signals for about $25 and a PS/2 to USB ADAPTER which allows a modern keyboard which can "speak" either USB or PS/2 to physically plug into a PS/2 and costs $1.50. A genuine original model M requires a converter not an adapter.
Another genuine model M aspect not often discussed is you can pop the keycaps off the key with a bent paperclip and engrave emacs annotations on them and/or sharpie letter them and then 15 years later you'll still have to look at emacs keymappings even if you're a mostly VIM guy now. Its kinda like getting a tattoo although there's no convenient laser removal, so don't do it unless you're really sure. Every couple years I pop all my keycaps and put them in a tupperware with some dish soap and give them a shakey bath and they come out clean and the keyboard looks brand new.
For people who've never used/heard a model M, don't freak out about the noise. Its probably 20 dB down from office banter "my ball team is better than your ball team" or whatever. I mean if you're packed in so close than keyboard noise is a big deal, you're probably packed in so tight that there's a hundred other tightly packed issues so one more is no big deal. When your boss won't let you use a model M from home because its "too big" because you've gotta fit seven programmers into a 6x6 cube, the real problem isn't the size of the keyboard. Its not like a jackhammer. Your typical laserprinter is louder and more obnoxious.
Thank you so much for this information. I've actually got an old M model with a DIN plug. It's got coffee stains, cigarette burns (a different era from when you could smoke in the office!) and general grime all over.
I later used it with a DIN to PS/2 cable. It's currently in a box in the spare room with all the other junk, but I might see about getting a PS/2 to USB converter. It's a lovely keyboard, the best I've ever used.
I use a Kinesis Advantage Pro, which is a Cherry brown equipped ergonomic. It is fantastic. I used to use a Model M; also an old Sun; an old Next; a variety of boutique mechanical keyboards (the HH, among others). For a variety of reasons, I've come back to the Kinesis. I have three; I lend one out to friends and coworkers who might want to try it.
I'm largely dissatisfied with the world of keyboards; I wish there were a better way to interact with my computer, and until such a time, that people would stop just getting by with whatever garbage the OEM decides to least common denominator them with.
Assuming you write code, how do you feel about the key remapping? I have seen people complain about the location of brackets and other keys; which is enough to keep me away.
I've never noticed the brackets slowing me down; the only remaps I do are Caps to Ctrl-L (which can now be done on the Mac side) and Shift-R to Cmd.
The big problem for me is that there's no way to create new modifier keys (I spend all my time in Emacs, and having a Hyper and Super would be really nice), but that's more a HID problem than a Kinesis one. A minor irritation is that the USB hub doesn't output sufficient amperage to be useful for anything. An even more minor irritation is that sometimes the keyboard will get confused and apply a modifier lock function, but because of some weird quirk will lock Meta rather than Shift, and my windows will go berzerk. It's a trivial state to escape from (I just hit Meta and Caps), and it doesn't happen often enough to rise to the level of I MUST FIX THIS NOW.
I use PS/2 era model M's on all three of my desktop computers. I used to pick them up for $1/per at various swap meets. I ruined a couple of them after cleaning the switch deck in warm water, after several successful experiences with the others. To date, I haven't found anything I like better, though I haven't tried any of the modern mechanicals.
I totally agree. The keyboard space hasn't seen any innovation in the past 30 years or more. While most of us spend hours using this old device wasting unnecessary energy, it is time for a new cost effective technology to change this.
Now the important part is not the change the existing experience we have today.
So much time wasted in schools teaching children secretarial skills on proprietary software packages that will have been replaced by the time they finish school anyway.
We could do a lot worse than giving to every such child, instead of practice in Microsoft Word, a decent (possibly primarily one-handed) chord keyboard on which they learn to touchtype.
You need a way to roll the tech out. We've got tons of unknown tech if you search the marketplace hard enough. For example a couple people suggest the Truly Ergonomic website. But that's never going to sell me, because I have no idea how it actually feels compared to my "current" early 90s model M.
What we need is a middleman, maybe MLM, who will do keyboard "tupperware parties" or maybe a stealth middleman under the cover of business RSI prevention consulting. In the old days I could go to compusa and try keyboards, err... and looks like best buy is failing too now... so if you want to actually try a keyboard you're pretty much limited to walmart and the apple store and they've only got one POS to try.
Its interesting how a pretty core part of the clothing retailing business model is built around try before buy, but keyboards don't allow that. If I have 14 business shirts I'll try on the 15th before buying it to "make sure" even though if I totally screw up I still only have to wear it 1/15th of the time even if it doesn't fit perfectly. Yet the keyboard that I have to use every day for hours, eh, just order the cheapest, online, sight unseen, who cares if the employee's hands rot and fall off we'll just hire another...
I am using a Ducky Shine 1 (DK-9008) with Cherry MX Blue switches. It's a lovely keyboard and I've really enjoyed using it. Definitely a keyboard I would recommend. The Shine 2 is out now, but afaik the difference is minimal. You can probably pick the Shine 1 up for a bit less now.
Why is the Truly Ergonomic missing?
I tried TEK, Kinesis Advantage and SteelSeries Keyboards, and I think the TEK is the most comforable one and I definitely love it.
Could you comment more on why you thought the TEK was the more comfortable one, and how does it compare to the Kinesis? I'm thinking about getting either a Kinesis, a TEK, or a Ralforce (never tried those topre switches though). I was leaning so far to the Kinesis, thinking it was the more comfortable of the three. But I never tried the TEK, so I have no way of comparing.
I have a Das Keyboard with Cherry MX Blue switches. At the moment it's just gathering dust as the home entertainment centre keyboard. The sound really got annoying after using it for awhile. I couldn't type at night because of it.
I switched to the standard Apple keyboard instead. I can't type as fast on it, but it's tolerable at least.
I use a Razer Blackwidow Ultimate, with Cherry MX Blue switches, that I got for free. I love the thing though it is quite loud, loud enough to where I'll have to turn up the volume of movies or music if I'm listening over speakers instead of headphones. Also, typing on a rectangular keyboard for hours on end doesn't bother me whereas some folks may have RSI issues.
Most of the mechanical keyboards I see are advertised as "gaming keyboards". If I bought a keyboard it would primarily be used for writing code or english text (don't see how a mechanical keyboard would improve gaming that much unless you are a 300APM starcraft fiend).
What sort of keyboard should I look for for code typing?
For coding, you're gonna be fine with literally any keyboard, including some $20 logitech piece.
Mechanical keyboards can be fun if you enjoy their feel, or if as a gamer, you're needing to be able to hit a key 5+ times per second and have it pick up each and every one. But honestly, for coding, you can get it done on just about anything, as speed isn't the necessity, planning is.
I find it would be nice to be able to tab , backspace and arrow key a bit faster. Not sure how much a mechanical keyboard would help there though.
While I agree in principle with planning, I often find that it's easier for me to write and refactor a bunch of times rather than try and get it perfect first time. So being able to type faster would give me slightly less friction per refactor.
Possibly. It might just be a difference in approach- I figure out the right way the first time, then generally make small revisions afterwards for the sake of performance.
You would be able to do those things faster- but when I say that the difference would be minimal, I don't know how to stress it enough. Professional Starcraft players frequently will tell you that until you're operating at above 150 actions per minute MINIMUM, you're not gonna get a damn thing out of a mechanical keyboard that you couldn't from some normal trashy piece.
But, there's nothing wrong with splurging and getting yourself something nice if you just want the satisfaction. Admittedly, there is something just nice about using one. I think they totally end up justifying their cost for myself personally, in the same way that driving a nice car just makes you feel a little better. It isn't that it drives that much better(it does, just not by a huge margin), it isn't that the seats feel more comfortable(same), and it isn't that it looks nicer(often I think they don't). There's just something satisfying about hitting that level of luxury.
But that doesn't make it entirely wise economically, or a requisite, whatsoever. It's just nice. And that's okay.
I don't understand this attitude. The keyboard is the arguably the most important piece of hardware you will ever use as a computer programmer; and they're not by any means interchangeable. You owe it to yourself as a professional to use professional tools -- do the research, try as many different styles as possible, never stop attempting to do better.
This is like saying a web developer needs the newest i7 processor because it "just makes you better". Except even that is more valid than the keyboard argument.
If you want nice tools that's fine. I've got nothing against it, and I plan on buying many more mechanical keyboards in my life. But a keyboard doesn't change how you code, it doesn't change the real speed of your coding. It might change your satisfaction level during the day if you get caught up in that, but frankly, if you're typing so much that you need the extra precision of a mechanical keyboard to save time, you need to do something about your boilerplate code.
Here's my question - could you please share your experience with a mechanical keyboard to conclude on your statement "For coding, you're gonna be fine with literally any keyboard, including some $20 logitech piece". I am genuinely interested to know.
In my opinion, what you wrote in reply to jiggy2011 is b.s. Mechanical keyboards are good for gaming and equally good for coding (or for that matter even data entry/processing jobs). The reason is they are way more responsive and quicker than a membrane one that usually is on a laptop. It (imho) also helps in your wrist pain and is easy on fingers (as in you don't have to go pressing a key all the way down). If you have hands on a blue-cherry mechanical keyboard, try for a month and then try typing on a laptop keyboard.
@jiggy2011 - i have many keyboards of varied styles. my personal favorite is the CM QuickFire Rapid(tenkeyless and cheaper compared to others). If you are looking for the best in the class (go Filco - made in japan and flawless).
Don't fall for the hyped keyboards - daskeyboard,razer,steelcase etc. They are good, but not up there in quality. Specially daskeyboard used to be good when they started out - i would not pick on any daskeyboard built after 2008. They used to make keyboards sourced from Taiwan(better quality), but now source it from an OEM from China.
good luck!
My experience is that while a mechanical keyboard is more enjoyable and slightly easier, I've never once in my life gotten frustrated at some cheapo keyboard while coding. I've never needed to know the exact millisecond a key was pressed, the rebound is just fine.
Lets be honest here. Programming is not some intensive exercise. Nor should you be getting carpal tunnel as a programmer- if you are, you need to dial back the boilerplate.
I don't enjoy laptop keyboards if only because they force my palms to be raised- I have large hands, so for me it's natural to rest the bottom of my palms on the desk or even on the side of the desk, whereas on a laptop it's at an equal height to the keys- which is annoying as hell. I also dislike the shape of too many laptop keyboards, if only because they seem to prioritize style over feel and key differentiation(lookin' at you, Apple).
But this isn't intense stuff. If you're gaming, or doing high-speed data entry, or even if you're a prolific writer, you may have a real claim. But as a programmer, claiming that you need a mechanical keyboard is nonsense. They're nice, and if you want nice tools, that's okay, and I encourage you to invest. But they're not required, and they're never going to make you a better programmer.
MX Blue switches on an incredibly plain, dull matt plastic chassis that ages incredibly well.
They are one of the cheapest none-gaming mechanical keyboard (and the actual chassis is only fair to good) but the action is superb, completely ruined me for anything else.
Buy the gamer keyboard. The marketing ideal is gamers buy input devices and video cards (and games, obviously) so your finest input devices, which obviously cost the most, will be marketed as the gamer devices.
The marketing for code writers is usually focused on ... well they're pretty much off the marketing radar.
The marketing for english text writers is focused with laser like intensity on apple hardware. Turing completeness is not allowed in marketing, rather the outlook of how can you do desktop publishing without a mac laptop, there's special assembly language opcodes in the CPU that make macs the only way to do creative stuff. Also there's a fixation on location based marketing like you can only write english text worth reading in a coffee house on a laptop so an external keyboard is a no go.
You'd want Cherry MX Blue for any sort of typing. I would find real-life examples of the switches before buying them; they don't feel immediately better than your average rubber dome -- you have to get used to them.
It might be worth checking out Topre Realforce keyboards as well: they're more rare but many people swear by them.
I have just started using a mechanical keyboard a year ago or so. I had already used a few but very little and did not pay attention to the issue they were mechanical until a pro-gamer said he was playing better with mechanical keyboards than normal keyboards.
My Keyboard is one black keyswitches from SteelSeries.
I also own a Filco majestouch with brown switches and am the envy of my friends ;) Although it is very nice, if all you do is type, and you don't mind extra sound I can very much recommend blue switches. I've tested these at a workplace that has them for all workers and in my experience they are a bit less stiff and the feedback is just great.
Xah Lee has given serious thought to keyboards. Though you may find something to disagree with, this page of his articles, reviews, and images is highly informative:
I feel kind of strange that my two favorite keyboards are the Das Keyboard Professional Silent (Cherry MX Brown) scissor wired USB Apple keyboard. Kind of on opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm also ok with Lenovo or Apple laptop keyboards, although they do feel a bit mushy.
We have similar preferences, but I've recently had to switch to a Cherry MX Brown from my Apple keyboard because of a hardware-level delay on the caps lock key that Apple somehow thought was a good idea. Emacs users, beware.
Am I the only Emacs user (admittedly, I don't live in it; I use the shell for more) who leaves capslock unused, and leaves control as control? What I hate is the Fn key position on the Apple Wireless keyboard, though (which strangely doesn't bother me as much on the laptops)
I'm sure you're not the only one, but for me at least, it was a no-brainer when I started using Emacs. The caps lock key requires about a fifth as much pinky movement as the control key does, and moving my pinky to the control key also affects the rest of my left hand because of the awkward angle. I almost stopped using Emacs after a day or two of trying it out before my friend told me about using caps lock.
Sorry, I should have clarified. My MBP keyboard works just fine with the caps lock switched to control because of what you described. My problem was with trying to use a wired Apple keyboard with Ubuntu.
The keyboard I really want to try is the DataHand Pro II (http://www.datahand.com/products/proii.htm) -- but it's a bit expensive. I've used them briefly in the past, and it was interesting for typing, but didn't work as well for keyboard+mouse.
I spent years as a technical translator. When I understood the source documents well, typing speed was the main limitation to how much money I could make in an hour, and so the keyboard I used was very important.
I discovered the key to fantastic typing under those conditions was not the mechanics of the keyboard--it was the layout of the letters.
After working at it full-time for a year or so, I started suffering wrist pain so bad I had to use voice recognition software (which sucked). I switched to the Dvorak layout and by the time I was proficient, the pain had disappeared, and I could type about 10 WPM faster. The pain never came back
It took about six months to remap my brain and muscle memory. Nowadays, it's sometimes a pain if I have to temporarily use another computer and I don't have access to the settings that change the layout. If I see that situation coming, I just bring my own keyboard to work. The only time it became a bigger problem was in a job where IT required a doctor's note before even allowing me to connect another keyboard to the computer or change the setting. I solved that problem by getting another job.
I use a keyboard that can be switched between Dvorak and normal, mainly for the convenience of non-Dvorak users who need to use my computer from time to time (This one: http://www.typematrix.com/), but I find the mechanics or type of keyboard (for example ergonomic or not) fades into insignificance compared to the difference between Dvorak and QWERTY.
Still, a nicely built keyboard can really improve the typing experience. My laptop is a Lenovo, and I love the feel of the keyboard on it.
I don't care what the keycaps say, because I totally touchtype. I bought the cheapest keyboard available for my Raspberry Pi, and the cheap feel is kind of annoying, but the difference between that one and the Lenovo is like between 70% and 90%, despite the quality difference, and most of that is based on having to get used to a different layout of the non-letter keys like delete and control, and not the quality of the mechanism.
I've been coding a lot these days and the work happens much more in the brain and less on the keyboard than in translation. That being the case, I think the appeal of a very high-quality keyboard for programming is probably more a matter of taste than practicality. It's like owning a Ferrari. You will never push it near its limit, but its really fun to drive.
Another consideration: programming makes very heavy use of symbols compared to text writing, and I think a true programmer's keyboard would be one that puts those symbols in easy reach.
So my keyboard recommendations to hackers would be: Find a keyboard with a layout that supports your programming efforts. Next consider what feels good and appeals to your taste. Finally, if you write a lot of text in other contexts besides coding, and if you have some time to suck at typing for six months before getting much better at it, try Dvorak. It will speed up those really long HN posts.
Totally different experience here. I've written more than ten books and I'm coding nearly full time.
Keyswitch matters a lot. I've tried Cherry MXes, ALPS and I've used good old IBM Model M for more than a decade.
One year ago I discovered Topre switches and now I'm using a HHKB Pro 2 (Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2).
I know it's great on HN to get upvotes to write: "TFA is pointless, it's not X that counts but Y" but IMHO you're totally off.
The switch does matter a lot. First find a switch that doesn't destroy your fingers' joints and that feel good, then find a keyboard with a form factor that you like, then find a key layout that you like (Dvorak or QWERTY or whatever).
* How many readers on Hackernews use a Model M keyboard?
* Who uses a keyboard that is better than a Model M (if such a thing exists)?
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