>The real issue is that being consequent about stoicism seems to always result in contradiction given mankind's current state of knowledge. On one hand stoicism is concerned with not wasting time (on indulgences) and at the same time it ignores that a market economy (embedded in a democratic society) is the only way we know of, that can reliably force a larger population to strive for efficiency.
I don't think we "know" anything of the sort. That's just an ideology people who believe in market economy subscribe to. Efficiency, for one, is an empty term. Efficiency with regards to what and towards what? And why "force a larger population" to strive for it?
>And of course we're all just fallible selfish humans
Not sure about that either -- if it's meant in the extreme. I know millions who have devoted themselves to various external causes, even to the point of being improsoned and losing their jobs etc for it. From patriotic duty in an occupied land, to overthrowing a dictatorship, to working for civil rights and for equality, people following the communist ideals in the 20th century, etc. Even the nazi party followers were willing to sacrifice themselves (young soldiers etc), for some outer cause. Same for those who fought against them of course.
>Just imagine how much more of our time would be wasted if there weren't an army of "tools" out there, working 8 hours a day towards the "indulgence" of ensuring that there is allways enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities.
We have lived in societies were there wasn't always "enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities" and people managed just fine.
In fact common people had even more free time than now. Leaving your "9-5" job or your small shop you worked on every afternoon without any worry (and no boss to get you on the mobile), working only 5 days a week and with month long holidays annually, siesta and afternoon naps, people strolling and idling in cafes and city squares, etc, was very common, in 20th century Paris, Vienna, Rome, Barcelona, Athens, etc. In fact, up to the 80s-90s it was still almost like that. We might not have had Walmart 24/7 superstores or all kinds of BS foods and "indulgences" but it's not like they were missed much, if any.
I think this is rather easy to check - just have a look at per capita GDP.
> Efficiency, for one, is an empty term.
How did you reach this conclusion?
> Efficiency with regards to what and towards what?
With regard to how much effort you need to spend in order to achieve some outcome.
> And why "force a larger population" to strive for it?
Because it means we all waste less time/effort (on inefficiencies).
> I know millions who have devoted themselves to various external causes
I wasn't talking about specific individuals, but humans in general. Virtually every society will have some bad apples amongst it, and even those that don't will at least have incompetent ones.
I don't mean this in any derogatory way - in the end it's just genetics, random mutations and all that stuff. It's not exactly a process we can reasonably influence or even just comprehend.
> We might not have had Walmart 24/7 superstores or all kinds of BS foods and "indulgences" but it's not like they were missed much, if any.
I'd like to see a credible source for this claim. I for one would certainly miss some of those things.
I don't think we "know" anything of the sort. That's just an ideology people who believe in market economy subscribe to. Efficiency, for one, is an empty term. Efficiency with regards to what and towards what? And why "force a larger population" to strive for it?
>And of course we're all just fallible selfish humans
Not sure about that either -- if it's meant in the extreme. I know millions who have devoted themselves to various external causes, even to the point of being improsoned and losing their jobs etc for it. From patriotic duty in an occupied land, to overthrowing a dictatorship, to working for civil rights and for equality, people following the communist ideals in the 20th century, etc. Even the nazi party followers were willing to sacrifice themselves (young soldiers etc), for some outer cause. Same for those who fought against them of course.
>Just imagine how much more of our time would be wasted if there weren't an army of "tools" out there, working 8 hours a day towards the "indulgence" of ensuring that there is allways enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities.
We have lived in societies were there wasn't always "enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities" and people managed just fine.
In fact common people had even more free time than now. Leaving your "9-5" job or your small shop you worked on every afternoon without any worry (and no boss to get you on the mobile), working only 5 days a week and with month long holidays annually, siesta and afternoon naps, people strolling and idling in cafes and city squares, etc, was very common, in 20th century Paris, Vienna, Rome, Barcelona, Athens, etc. In fact, up to the 80s-90s it was still almost like that. We might not have had Walmart 24/7 superstores or all kinds of BS foods and "indulgences" but it's not like they were missed much, if any.
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