Yes: health care in Mexico and India is cheaper. Not better. Cheaper.

> I wouldn't want to get, say, complicated brain surgery in Mexico.

I rest my case.

Yes, and it's because labor is cheaper in these countries than in yours, because their standard of living is lower, and therefore living costs are cheaper.

So it's cheaper for you, because you come from a country with a higher standard of living, and your income is much higher than average in those countries. So for you, their prices are cheap. But for the locals, they're definitely not cheap.

If you switch to a completely private system in US, those doctors will want to be paid US wages, not Mexican or Indian wages. And then you'll find the cost of their services much less affordable.

> For certain kinds of medicine, people will even make medical visits to the US from socialized countries like Canada or France.

There was an actual study on Canadians coming to US for healthcare. The scope of it is vastly overblown, and the reasons are very different from what people often assume they are.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/21/3/19.full.html

I live in Bangalore, India. My local private clinics are filled with American citizens. Medical tourism is all the rage here.

One thing that surprised me is that healthcare in Thailand is exceptionally good. There are world-class hospitals and doctors, and people come here for medical tourism. The dentists are also very good, and very affordable.

I think I've actually had better treatment in Chiang Mai than in San Francisco. I have health insurance, but I've never had to use it, and I just pay cash for everything. I once went to the ER in San Francisco and ended up paying $2,000 for an x-ray and some medicine (that was after insurance, I think the total bill was something like $5,000.)

We've had a few x-rays and medicine in Chiang Mai, and we just paid $40 in cash (USD).

So I think it's definitely a good idea to live in a country with universal healthcare, or one where healthcare is very affordable. Of course, unless you have "f&*@ you" money, then it doesn't really matter.

Then the entire US healthcare system will sound ridiculous and insane to you :)

And, to be honest, it is. I have American friends who had accidents while in developing countries (broke an arm in Costa Rica) and were puzzled that they were treated and didn't have to pay anything, or very little (broke feet in Croatia).

only in the US, mon ami.

I think it's ridiculous that someone has to consider moving countries, which is no small task and out of reach for many, just to be able to afford their healthcare.

This is the part which scares me in these discussions: I can do that if I have time to plan in advance. If some accident occurs, I have no choice but to deal with the US system – and even if with good insurance coverage I'd have to deal with the kind of routine over-billing and obstructionism you mentioned. It's like we're trying to encourage all but the most risk-averse to emigrate to a country with a more humane system.

Except things like, you know, quality of care or satisfaction.

Single-payer healthcare beats the American implementation, which is not a high bar to clear.

There's a reason medical tourism to Mexico and India is so prevalent. Totally deregulated private doctors seem to kick the ass of state healthcare (in quality and wait times) and American healthcare (in cost). I wouldn't want to get, say, complicated brain surgery in Mexico; in that case, the tens of thousands of dollars premium you would pay, uninsured, for US care is probably worth it. But for routine medicine (dental care, minor surgery, etc.) it's medical tourism all the way. For certain kinds of medicine, people will even make medical visits to the US from socialized countries like Canada or France.

Same here in India. For all the talk about Medical Tourism to India, it works only because Americans come here to India with Dollars, and $1 = 70 rupees. Your purchasing power suddenly increases by 70 times.

For Indians in India. Its the same near US level rip off. Sometimes its also hard to not sympathize with the doctors. It takes the best years of your 20's and early 30's to get to be a good doctor, and its expensive to get all those degrees and training. So they charge whatever they have to, to not only recover all that money but also make a fortune worth profit along the way.

A lot of time this is done through unethical means. Ordering tests the patient doesn't need(commissions with the labs), prolonging treatments to optimize for per visit costs, writing medication the patient doesn't need(again commissions with the pharmacy) etc etc.

But yeah, I agree with you. Even In India, Most doctors I talk to want(ed) to go the US to settle there. Largely because of the apparently insanely high pay and perks. One person I talked in my extended family almost talked about it like it wasn't something they had to even think about. If you are a doctor you had to settle in the US. The profession is just too profitable in the USA, to not move to there.

Now seems like a good time to remind everyone that the world is not the USA. Most developed countries don't treat medicine as a for profit business.

Amen to that.

> I like to look at South Korea as an example of reasonable costs in a healthcare system that’s 100% private (the government just picks up the tab afterwards).

From Britain you don't have to look that far abroad for this: Germany would suffice, AIUI, or maybe even just across the Channel to France. (But, hey, congrats on leaving the club of civilised nations.)

Of course, if you have the money to fly to the US, stay in the US and pay out-of-pocket for a medical procedure in the US, then yes, the US is a good destination. Which translates into: if you're rich, medicine in the US is great.

However, not all of us are rich. And definitely not all Americans are rich.

I believe that this may be what pushes the American system to change.

I know of several not-rich people, sometimes who have decent or good insurance, who have chosen to go abroad for medical care. The care they get abroad is typically cheaper as well as better.

Given the amount of money the US spends on healthcare, this should rarely be true.

The insurance companies have set up a good gig for themselves, but I think that they may be feeding at the trough a bit too aggressively. When the economy has a big downturn, I think some hard questions will be asked.

Because most people don’t pay that. Medicaid covers half of all births in the US. Insurance covers almost everyone else. We just had a baby last year. Insurance covered almost everything.

The US is outstanding at taking money from sick people, just not any better at getting them well.

It sounds like you’re saying America is the only country in the world developing new and advanced treatments and the only country people travel to for such surgery. Clearly that’s not even remotely true (and even if it were, which it isn’t, it still doesn’t justify just how badly broken your healthcare system is for domestic users).

There's also the higher than normal risk of needing medical treatment in a country with either higher medical costs or lower healthcare quality.

In my country of birth, covid treatment is free* in state owned hospitals for citizens and non citizens. But it's not the case in other countries.

*Taxpayer funded

To complete the picture, in the truly civilized countries when you're sick you just go to the hospital, and they take care of you, no strings attached.

The whole world is not made just of the USA and some banana republics.