> You're giving the Leave campaign a free pass on a technicality of language.
I suppose that's probably right.
I just don't like seeing snide throwaway remarks that when you think them, they aren't really exactly what the situation is. Like the Leave slogan, the snide remarks are also damaging to making sure everyone has a fair understanding of the true situation.
> having actually gone partly down the brexit path
What do you mean exactly?
> The treatment of leavers by remainers has been frankly disgusting
Completely agree. The whole thing of people taking sides, rather than discussing a political issue, has been absurd and awful.
> voted for brexit on informed reasons
Unfortunately this was badly communicated, the media's fault no doubt. It was genuinely quite difficult to find a reasoned, balanced view (especially on the leave side I have to say).
> I know I'll get told off for this, but I really do wish you whining Remainers would just fuck right off
As an European, i wish you whining British people would just.. maybe not fuck off, but shut up. The world doesn't revolve around you, and your country is on its way to diplomatic insignificance and isolation. Me commenting on the terrible course of your incompetent government doesn't mean i want you back in the EU. You're better off destroying yourself away from us, so that we can focus on what matters.
> people were saying that leave and remain were running equally distasteful and underhanded campaigns
I don't know who was saying it? I think everyone can agree (even the courts) that Leave campaigning was far more underhanded both in terms of veracity and in terms of legality.
> they're saying that Remain was worse
Worse in terms of less effective and less emotionally appealing, yes. Again that is fairly universally acknowledged.
> Personally, I think that if you're going to do that you may as well just skip the referendum entirely, declare that the whole thing's cancelled and save everyone a lot of bother.
I think it's significantly more democratic to have another vote. Most people thought remain would win the first one, but they didn't. If leave won again, we'd definitely definitely have to leave.
> there'd be no Leave option as most people understand it
I question that there is such a shared understanding of what leave means. Leavers seem pretty split between hard and soft options.
This is tiring to keep seeing this constant smear repeated. Sure immigration was mentioned but having control over immigration isn't the same as xenophobia. I've lived in a few different countries and the UK generally isn't xenophobic.
> I think the common thing about Brexit is that voting to leave is quite likely not based in any actual reason, but is a purely emotional reaction.
Well I would disagree. There are plenty of reasons why (not taking orders from Brussels is a really good reason, especially after Article 11 and 13 were drafted and forced through the Parliament).
> Ah yes, you've just reminded me of one of the other issues: Some Remain campaigners had difficulty engaging with people who were on the fence about the EU without calling them ignorant yokels.
In other words: The truth hurt. And out of spite they cut off their own nose. Well, whatever works for them.
> I know from the way they make up stories about why people voted out and then insult them - its quite unpleasant
You dismiss the possibility that they are right. Many people do support Brexit for wholly racist reasons (e.g. my father who wants to 'get the poles out').
> If you think they are nonsensical, you do not understand what I am saying.
And I thankyou for clarification :)
> but trade is not the limit of what Brexit changed.
Here in lies the problem that many Brexitiers had with the EU - it wasn't just a trading bloc, the "club" had a lot of baggage that few people understood - and when people don't understand something, they fear/misstrust it. The message around leaving was focused on GDP and whether we would have roaming chargers or not... and this message fell flat with a lot of voters.
I blame the remain side with arrogance and a complete lack of understanding how to deliver a good message.
I voted remain BTW, but feel we had a fair vote and it is what it is.
> "That was nationalistic bullshit to whip up the less educated in support of Leave."
I do wish people in the Remain camp would stop with this. Just because people voted to Leave, doesn't mean they were uneducated. I was on the fence about whether to stay or go for a long time, it was only after I put in research that I decided to vote to Leave. Despite what you see in the mainstream media, it's not just a bunch of racists voting to Leave. In fact, I really wish I could've voted to stay, but I didn't want to compromise my principals to do so.
If you want an educated voice that was in favour of leaving, watch this clip of Tony Benn...
> they're not quite -that- dumb as to out themselves directly
I don't know. Have you heard some brexiteers complaining about brexit. Of course the problem is that Brexit wasn't done 'properly'. 'brexit means brexit' and all that.
This is a smear to demonise leave voters and dismiss any valid concerns they may have. The UK is generally not xenophobic.
> Anecdotally, from watching shows like Question Time on the BBC, I strongly believe that leave voters are thick and we needn't tip toe around this issue.
I've watched plenty of question time and tbh the people that appear the stupidest are usually the politicians. So it is completely subjective.
> Here are two studies showing the correlation between votes and education level.
This is outright fallacious. I know plenty of people that have a PhD that can barely function outside of academia. Having a higher education level really doesn't mean much once you leave academia and doesn't mean you are any more or less informed on a particular issue.
> Of course, there are also plenty of rational reasons that someone might have come down on the Leave side
I have followed brexit a bit in media and online debates, i have not heard a single good concrete argument for leaving.
For brexit arguments were just empty platitudes about freedom, choice and independence, but when asked about specific law that is issue, or what they would do with new freedom, there was always a silence.
> "I know this is hard to belive for some people but you don't need to be a xenophobe/nastionalist to have voted for "leave". The insults really don't help anyone."
You are absolutely right and I wasn't trying to equate the two. To be clear - I will not label leave voters as xenophobes or nationalists, and I don't dispute the legitimacy of voting "leave". My concrete point was: having a German passport is not necessarily a guarantee of all the freedoms she's seeking for herself and her children.
> some of those who campaigned for Leave are now distancing themselves from this claim. Some have gone as far as admitting that it had been a mistake.
So some people said something, and some other said something else, and some other changed their mind. I would really expect better journalism from BBC. Amateur bloggers are doing better job.
If BBC did their job in the first place, Brexit would never win. It would be very simple to debung £350m figure and explain how EU works. Instead they pushed their own political agenda.
I suppose that's probably right.
I just don't like seeing snide throwaway remarks that when you think them, they aren't really exactly what the situation is. Like the Leave slogan, the snide remarks are also damaging to making sure everyone has a fair understanding of the true situation.
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