> Ah yes, you've just reminded me of one of the other issues: Some Remain campaigners had difficulty engaging with people who were on the fence about the EU without calling them ignorant yokels.
In other words: The truth hurt. And out of spite they cut off their own nose. Well, whatever works for them.
>Anyone that disagrees with my take on this issue is a moron.
It's wrong to think that everyone who disagrees with you on anything is a moron. It's also wrong to deny the existence of morons who occasionally do moronic things.
I mean, we are talking about a group of people who held a referendum, knowing that the vote would be close, and then didn't even have a plan for what to do afterwards. The country is in chaos and the leaders of the Brexit brigade have all sodded off, having absolutely no idea what to do next.
We did consider the opinions of Brexit supporters. Their concerns were taken seriously. The Conservative government went overboard in its attempts to reduce migration and negotiate a more favorable deal with Europe. They really couldn't have done any more without doing something outright ridiculous. But that wasn't enough. So the public insisted that they do something ridiculous.
> having actually gone partly down the brexit path
What do you mean exactly?
> The treatment of leavers by remainers has been frankly disgusting
Completely agree. The whole thing of people taking sides, rather than discussing a political issue, has been absurd and awful.
> voted for brexit on informed reasons
Unfortunately this was badly communicated, the media's fault no doubt. It was genuinely quite difficult to find a reasoned, balanced view (especially on the leave side I have to say).
> I used to do that too - with religion. Then I stopped because I believe that there are fundamental differences between rational and irrational people.
I'm an atheist so I sort of know what you're saying but I don't like to call religious people irrational. They have a certain POV and I know of religious people who are rational (most of them really).
> I am French and our news
ditto stupidity from out govt in the UK. But I do expect people to do a bit more research before making life-threatening decisions.
I've argued with brexiteers. It's a waste of time. "We're British!" seems reason enough for them (am a brit).
This is tiring to keep seeing this constant smear repeated. Sure immigration was mentioned but having control over immigration isn't the same as xenophobia. I've lived in a few different countries and the UK generally isn't xenophobic.
> I think the common thing about Brexit is that voting to leave is quite likely not based in any actual reason, but is a purely emotional reaction.
Well I would disagree. There are plenty of reasons why (not taking orders from Brussels is a really good reason, especially after Article 11 and 13 were drafted and forced through the Parliament).
His persona is that of a charismatic bumbling idiot, but idiot he is not. Underneath this persona lies a highly intelligent, disingenuous, manipulative and calculating operator.
I genuinely think that he didn't believe in Brexit; rather he saw a potential route into number 10 and took a gamble on it.
> I know from the way they make up stories about why people voted out and then insult them - its quite unpleasant
You dismiss the possibility that they are right. Many people do support Brexit for wholly racist reasons (e.g. my father who wants to 'get the poles out').
> You're giving the Leave campaign a free pass on a technicality of language.
I suppose that's probably right.
I just don't like seeing snide throwaway remarks that when you think them, they aren't really exactly what the situation is. Like the Leave slogan, the snide remarks are also damaging to making sure everyone has a fair understanding of the true situation.
>> Problem is people who have political bias and stick to it in a bigoted prejudiced way.
This annoys the crap out of me.
I know people who are vehemently anti-Tory, who will take the slightest word of anything from the current government and twist it so they can paint it in the most evil light imaginable, and cast the current politicians as real actual demons.
Tell them you have no faith in the other side either and you'll get a lecture about the party of workers, rights for the poor etc.
Mention to these people that the legacy of the last labour government (war, prohibition, surveillance-state) isn't exactly shining and didn't actually help the downtrodden either and you'll get a grudging comment about how Blair was possibly a mistake but the 'toffs' in power now are only there to screw everyone.
Not "the whole Labour party was and still is in on this sh*t and are just as bad as anyone else, let's have some real choice", which is the only rational position I can think of. No, just hate.
I don't actually know anyone that admits to voting conservative so I haven't seen the other side. I'm sure its much the same.
My mother admits to voting for the best looking party leader.
> they're not quite -that- dumb as to out themselves directly
I don't know. Have you heard some brexiteers complaining about brexit. Of course the problem is that Brexit wasn't done 'properly'. 'brexit means brexit' and all that.
I never said that. It's all about intellectual honesty.
I know that I'm not qualified for my opinion to matter on the topic (I'm just debunking low quality propaganda here) despite the fact that I did hours of research on it.
We don't ask random people about their opinion on string theory, do we ?
They really are not. The current crop of UK politicians of all stripes are thick as they come - intellectual lightweights who can bullshit their way through a media appearance thanks only to an abject lack of shame. No one can look at people like Mark François, Liz Truss or Dianne Abbott (just to take three) and think “ah, there’s someone playing dumb for the camera”!
Unfortunately, the current crop of journalists are largely ineffective if not broadly enabling if this kind of behaviour, and politics is not a field anyone not already independently wealthy can afford to be in (a junior developer in the Bay Area can easily make more than the Prime Minister) so it does not seem likely to self-correct.
>They’re portrayed as tragically ridiculous players vying for power and positive public image who’ll drop their “principles” at the drop of a hat if it suits them
And that cynical portrayal of politics is itself part of the exact ideology that Thatcher tried to promote, so I don't really see why you think that contradicts OPs point. It's like the joke that Reagan used to repeat "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help". It wasn't an actual self-demeaning joke, the intention was to demean governance itself at every moment possible.
Not necessarily in the government, no. I was only referring to BJ that way.
> the “remainer” fools
That cuts of any discussion with those people. Our concerns aren't foolish just because they aren't yours.
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