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The goverment just forces ISPs and companys to hand over data. It has happened, it is happening, your argument is invalid.


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The government can also force companies to hand over data. Better that the data is never consolidated in the first place.

That is an extreme point of view that I don't agree with.

That's your prerogative, of course, but we're talking about the past now. It's not theoretical anymore. It has really happened, it is really happening.

I'd like to point out that theses abuses weren't done by the data holders but by the government...

You are drawing a sharp line between private enterprise and the government, but it seems like an increasingly irrelevant, imaginary distinction.

From a practical point of view, for the average user on the modern web, there never was such a distinction worth making, as it turns out. The "data holders" will rat you out to the government and the government will give orders to the "data holders" that they simply have to comply with. In many respects, the "data holders" may as well be another government office, from a privacy-minded point of view.


Your claim is that the government have unfettered access to ALL the data.

Can you provide a link to your claim or it is just your opinion because there is no proof of that?


The victim here is not the government but the people it's supposed to serve. They are providing a bad service if data (likely ours but they don't say) gets stolen away.

You are completely misguided then:

1. You consider the government as a singular entity. It's a group of people. In that circumstance, it's as secure as the lowest denominator of person, which in a government is low.

2. You're find for them retaining your data, then implementing a law, then using it against you?

3. There are plenty of cases where the government have abused data that has been entrusted to them. There is no commercial motivation via competition for them to do a good job. You are effectively contracting out to a monopoly.

4. There is no absolute security either and it should be in your own hands. The moment you contract it out, you're morally responsible for the competence of who you contracted it out to, yet the government isn't an entity you can easily take to court nor seek compensation from.

5. Keys are complicated to distribute. Do you expect this to be 100% effective?

Consider these a little further then check your opinion against the facts on the table.


Why can't I stop companies from taking my data if I don't want them to? Protection of its citizens is a primary function of a government.

Fortunately the government can only take data you have. They can't force you to have data (yet).

This is not the state of affairs in the telephone network, where every phone company is mandated to have government backdoors installed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_L...). That law was passed under Clinton, by the way.


Actually it's the backdoor bit that's more problematic. If they hand data by court order that is acceptable but if the government has direct lines to servers that is much more problematic.

There are 2 issues in this:

1) Governments have law and warrants allowing them to get those data.

2) Companies with a lot of data are complying with those warrants.

The question is: can we fix #2 without fixing #1?


In that case and now, in this case, too.. the government will have a legal monopoly on the data.

That's why the government is paying the companies to access the data. So it's much easier for companies to just comply with the order. The carrot and the stick.

It's not just government access; it's also the handing over of nearly every transaction to a private entity, whom can sell your transaction data to whomever they'd like at will.

This isn't all about government overstep. It's also about the giving up of your privacy to for-profit entities.

Regarding the gov: In the US, citizens have protections against unreasonable searches and seizures. Forcing nearly all transactions into the view of the gov is an unreasonable search.


If a government decides that it wants some data, they can just take it and silence whoever they want along the way.

Nobody is going to care about some App Store TOS agreement, when faced with the government monopoly on use of force.


What if they are forced by governmental order to hand over their data?

Your argument carries an assumption that all possible government action is hopelessly broken. I'm generally libertarian myself, but this viewpoint is ultimately a coping mechanism for a societal death spiral. Why bother working for results, when the results are always bad?

But even accepting the assumption that the government has become a malevolent attacker, then there is still an argument for goading it into hampering data collection - every bit of data collected by private companies is also available to the government to abuse and oppress us! Government power and corporate power are not in opposition, but rather two sides of the same coin of disempowering individuals.


What doesn't make sense is that people are afraid of USA government having much needed data, while private organizations have them already.

History teaches us that governments have to be treated according to different rules. Private companies didn't murder 100,000,000+ of their own customers in the last century alone. It took governments to do that.


If the government is using the data to bypass a restriction then that same government is unlikely to create a law to change that.

Seems like a problem that will never be fixed, on purpose.


A government agency can still order them to hand over all data they have, they are still a single point of failure from a privacy point of view.

You don't seriously think that the government wouldn't have access to this data stream?
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