The interesting think for me is that all discussions about relationships on hn boils down to money and looks (gym for guys, I guess makeup and diet for girls).
And the idea of match is "willing to let me pay for her". There is no other standard for suitable partner ever mentioned. No expectation of shared values or similar livestyle (except valuing looks). No expectation of mutual support.
And the experts on what women want are people who "dated" over dozens of people last year - meaning none of them trying for long term stable relationship.
And everytime I read those discussions I kind of think I would not want to date them either. Mostly because they primary think in hierarchies instead of relationships and because I would not want a guy that would use his money as leverage over me.
Yeah, you know, sometimes HN really surprises me with the stances people have on dating. I remember reading someone saying literally "it's just not possible to find a good-looking girlfriend before college". I was like, what? This statement is offensive to the whole humanity. And yeah, I care to explain why, if somebody won't get why, just ask me to do it.
Talk of "mate options" is not how most normal people approach relationships. Also, language discussing and finding a woman you desire being difficult if you don't make a lot of money is just odd and incelly as it casts the aspersion that all women are mercurial. It also paints women as objects of desire and not people with personalities, interests, dreams and a rich life - according to your language they're mercurial mate options.
I just think you could have phrased things a little better.
This feels like something only a woman could put forward or demand in a relationship based on their value in the dating market. A man would be in a much higher risk of being left with the same arrangement.
What is what you believe men want in a woman, that's being unfulfilled for these men?
The common male complaint I see isn't "all these women I date are simply not going to fulfill what I need," it's "no women will date me at all" which points at a breakdown in the process way before the point of "what are these men looking for." Hard to imagine these men even have any idea of what they're actually looking for in a relationship, with that lack of experience. You only find out one way...
And for that situation, a woman complaining "so few of these men I see have their shit together" and a man complaining "so few of these women are willing to date me at all" are two sides of the same coin. I think at a societal level, though, you'd be hard pressed to push the view "everyone should simply give up on contributing to society in traditional ways" so the coverage is going to look negatively at the "freeloaders" in the same way it disapproved of someone like Paris Hilton. You see it through a lens of sexism, I see it through a lens of it being hard to sympathize with someone drifting through life chatting meaninglessly on the internet and playing games. BATNA comes into play, too - the person with no options at all seems to be the one with the incentive to make changes. (While for the women here, and the men they are currently dating while ignoring these stay-at-home-and-do-nothing men, there's other, plenty-well-trod advice about compromise being necessary, etc, that's been repeated to death in media of all sorts.)
Maybe we should encourage these men to go become nannies for a few years, to both give them a job and boost their dating profile that way AND to prepare them for being a full-time homemaker if traditional employment simply isn't what they want! I certainly think that should be an option for both genders.
> Given that the vast majority breakups are initiated by women
Citation please? I would LOVE to know if your number here also includes stuff like "he slept with me and then ghosted me," too.
Yeah when I read all these comments about how hard dating is for men now, how impossible it is and think about the professional women I know and their dating experiences....
They have very reasonable standards in how they expect men to treat them, and the men they date are overwhelmingly not willing to rise to those standards. These standards are maybe much higher than they would have been even a generation ago but for the most part they are still very reasonable! And I am not even talking about money here.
Yeah, mindset is a huge component to this. I think the media has exasperated the problem through idealized fantasy which does not match reality. I think people tend to have high expectations of a match, but don't hold themselves to the same standards.
As an example, I've had fat/obese friends say they wouldn't date a fat girl... Or friends that expect the man to pay for everything like it's 1950 and make grand gestures like in the movies.. what do they expect then?
I’m not judging but this reads, to me, like you’re bitter. The majority of men and women may pursue mates based on superficial qualities but there are plenty who do not.
I separated three years ago, divorced recently and met someone a month after deciding to date. I used Bumble. It was easy. She’s beautiful, smart (smarter than me), kind, honest, athletic, hard working, loving and a wonderful mother to her 10 Y.O.
I live well below my means and only after commiting to a relationship did I realize just how poor she thought I was. My advice to you is that any women who would pursue a man for his looks and money isn’t worth your time. If you can’t find what you’re looking for you either need to work on your self or you need to look somewhere else.
Again, I’m not judging but the idea that enforced monogamy is better for society leads me to believe that you’re the problem.
I've been a serial dater for 20+ years now (38M) I've been with 70+ women, and about 10-15 of those for long term. I think more about dating dynamics than basically anyone I've ever met. I'm not sure why.
The main takeaway I see from relationships is that I'm expected to give, understand, listen, and bend to be some perfect modern man. I need to be beyond financially stable, I need to be tough, but also have some romantic comedy movie side of me. And she's expected to technically not sleep with anyone else but also I'm not allowed to think about that at all even or I'm insecure.
Whenever I start dating a woman, even if she has a good job, I feel like I'm taking on a dependent. Which would technically be fine, if I was appreciated for it. But I'm not. I'm basically chastised if I even notice that I'm giving a lot. "What, youre giving a lot? This is a lot? You must not be as good as I thought you were if this is a noticeable amount of giving to you". I'm not talking about just money. It's everything.
I can summarize my main problem with relationships via this old joke:
Q: What do women want?
A: More.
And that's why I won't marry and more and more won't date. I have a big enough collection of previous partners that calls me every time their bfs act up or bore them or disappoint them. Another reason to stay away from them.
On what basis do you make that claim? And doesn't the same hold true for men? (Maybe along a different axis, e.g. physical attractiveness - see "trophy wife")
I dunno. I found dating fun. If it's a waste of time and effort, then why bother hanging out with women at all? As far as money, I certainly don't expect to pay for everything, all the time. Even the least "financially capable" of the women I dated insisted on paying when she could afford to, and often just cooked me dinner because she couldn't afford to go out.
I'm past dating age (and anyway I have a relationship that has survived 20 years), but when I was younger, I never considered what the woman would bring to the relationship financially. I'm very traditional, though, so perhaps this attitude is no longer as common as it was when I was younger.
There's not really a humble way to say this. As an attractive man who has his shit together and makes good money, I have zero issues with dating and if anything I feel more in control of the situation than the women I meet.
The issue is likely that you're not very attractive or you're setting your standards too high for the women you pursue.
By your logic a large fraction, possibly the majority, of women aren’t “relationship material.” If that’s your conclusion maybe your premise is faulty.
I've yet to find a guy who was worth dating that wasn't in a relationship if they wanted to be in one.
I do know a lot of guys who struggle with the fact that the woman they're attracted to aren't to them. I definitely know a few women for whom that's true too, but it's mostly men, and generally younger ones.
And so they quote that same 80/20 rule from Peterson, which has no data behind it beside one bad survey, and insist its society's fault.
Meanwhile their Tinder profiles are just lists of all they things they demand from a partner – generally things they themselves won't provide.
Which isn't to say the problem isn't real – it definitely is – but it seems like any "solution" is going to have start at either commercial ideas (sex work) or a cultural shift.
That is how I generally view dating. I think, on some level, most people view it that way. It offends a lot of people to point it out, but the general expectation is that the man pays for dates and he hopes that it results in sex at some point.
Edit: people seem to be missing my point. I am female and I don't date. (http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/no-dating-re...) Stating that this is a logical interpretation of dating does not mean I condone it. (Yup, as stated elsewhere, I am for decriminalization of sex work.)
I think your generalizations are ridiculously broad here. Some women are golddiggers, but those relationships are, IMHO, not worth having anyway. Why do you think such a relationship is going to contribute more to your life than spending time on things that actually make you happy?
Even if all women wanted was power, we are playing a zero-sum, I-got-mine, race-to-the-bottom, everyone-loses game if we demand total devotion to status, and I don't think most women want that either. Already 25% of stay-at-home parents are men. The majority of women are now in the work force. Egalitarian marriages last longer. Things are changing, and we can help them change faster by opting out of that self-destructive game.
That doesn't mean giving up on being able to find a romantic relationship, however. There is a difference between being a bum and not seeking to dominate the people around us to get ahead at all cost. I'd recommend reading http://postmasculine.com/ for the dating advice that worked best for me. Much like weight loss, there are no short cuts to becoming capable of having satisfying relationships. It is hard work to move from desperation to a place where relationships are one possible way your life could be a bit nicer, but certainly not the only one. On the other hand, I found it worth the energy.
Women and men have roughly the same value overall in the dating market. The guys who say this kind of thing tend to have a narrow view of what kind of woman makes an acceptable relationship partner, and ignore a whole lot of women that are available and aren't nearly as well valued by 'the market'.
You find this "Women don't have this problem! They can have a relationship whenever they want" sentiment in so many conversations on Hacker News, and it's so unempathetic.
The premise is not true for many women. And even if it were, it's not necessarily any easier to get attention from someone you are interested in yourself. And women have to deal with social anxiety, fears of making themselves vulnerable, self-confidence, body image, etc. around pursuing or initiating relationships just as anyone.
I think this is based in people misreading dating app metrics or something, and completely neglects trying to imagine what life is like for the person.
And the idea of match is "willing to let me pay for her". There is no other standard for suitable partner ever mentioned. No expectation of shared values or similar livestyle (except valuing looks). No expectation of mutual support.
And the experts on what women want are people who "dated" over dozens of people last year - meaning none of them trying for long term stable relationship.
And everytime I read those discussions I kind of think I would not want to date them either. Mostly because they primary think in hierarchies instead of relationships and because I would not want a guy that would use his money as leverage over me.
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