So... punish the Chinese people for having an oppressive government by not providing them with the top of the line? It seems more unjust to me. There is no good choice here, only bad and worse — I think Apples presence in China is the lesser of two evils. Same with Google etc.
So what do you want Apple to do? Leave the China market and allow a government owned phone company to take the market share? How is that scenario better for anyone in the US or China?
I mean being angry that the Chinese government isn't great at human rights is one thing, but to point that anger at Apple is a bit misguided, and what do you suggest that would actually make the problem better?
Apple is the worst offender here, they really bend over backwards. It is proper to single them out too as they are one of the biggest providers of consumer goods at a high margin. There is absolutely no reason they should be forced to use slave labour in china. That's not to say there are other companies that do the same, but they are not as valuable or provide such a highly visible product.
Imagine the effect if Apple actually took a decent stance here and how it could spread awareness about the conditions there.
Google for instance decided to just pull out of the market, I have a lot of respect for that.
Why are you acting like Apple is the first company to face this dilemma? Google faced a decade ago and chose not to play ball with China with no assistance from any government.
Apple has obviously compromised themselves here because they are dependent on the good graces of the CCP for their manufacturing, and have caved to pressure.
I don’t think that is in question.
It seems like any company that does something the CCP dislikes is going to face this kind of pressure, and if even Apple can’t resist, the nobody can.
Google obviously chose not to participate in that market at all.
I see a lot of criticism of Apple here, which seems quite reasonable.
That leads me to be curious what people think an acceptable level of participation in the Chinese economy actually is?
Is Google’s move - I.e. exciting entirely - the only ethical option?
Apple follows Chinas law when doing business in china. News at 11.
And yes, I do think that Chinas censorship, mass surveillance, and minority oppression are bad, but I don’t expect apple to change that. Yes, they could choose not doing business in China, but is that realistic? Am I wrong?
In China all companies do this. Not having Apple there would not make things better for any freedom-loving Chinese, someone else would replace Apple and do exactly what the Gov wants.
China was happy to ban Facebook and Google. Google's market share in China plummeted from 37% to 2% over 4 years, and is still falling there.
The evidence certainly seems to suggest that China's government is willing to ban foreign tech companies for the benefit of the ruling party. Is there any evidence the Chinese government would hesitate to ban Apple if Apple undermined their authority?
I think there's a moral case for Apple refusing to serve China, but I think they would have to face the likely consequence that China would simply kick them out of the country.
Couple of honest questions to you (or anyone else reading this who thinks along the same lines).
Firstly, are you saying anyone who happened to be born in China is complicit in e.g. the crimes committed against Uighur population and thus doesn't deserve to be able to legally buy an Apple phone in their country?
Secondly, if Apple exits a non-free country, do you expect that to improve the situation? Make the country freer?
In China this would leave the population to local tech, which is pretty much owned by CCP and subject to its every whim—as opposed to Apple’s cooperating to the degree required to not break the law.
If Apple doesn't obey China's laws, they can't operate there. Also, why do you want to force your ideals onto Chinese people? Flip it around. If China forced their ideals on the US, would you find that okay? Is the difference that we're right and they're not? Objectively? Is it that they commit human rights atrocities? The US has done the same, just typically outside of its own borders.
Those companies rather skipped billions of dollars in profit than to help Chinese regime. Apple decided to use their lockdown to assist in clamping down on VPNs and other freedom of speech to make money.
Putting these two on equal footing is evil.
If it's moral for those workers in China to take employment working on Apple products, I don't see why it's immoral for Apple to make the deals that create that employment. So no, I don't really see a difference.
Business that especially benefits the Chinese government in particular, or that supports their oppressive activities, sure I can see that. I think Google took a principled moral stance in refusing to provide search services in China when it was clear those services would have to enable surveillance. I don't think they did anything wrong having their Pixel phones manufactured in China.
For context my wife in mainland Chinese, though now a British citizen, we go there regularly and have family there. I spend money in China, and don't think there's anything wrong with myself, businesses, or 'corporations' doing so either whatever we think of the CCP. So this sort of selective virtue posturing really rubs me up the wrong way.
Yes, I agree. That makes Apple completely beholden to the CCP. If they anger the CCP, their whole business is gone.
But I fail to see how that makes any of this more acceptable. They had 15 years to diversify. They didn't, but chose to instead spent that time just becoming more involved with a brutal autocracy, gambling their whole company on it.
It was stupid (one of the rare strategic missteps by Apple), it was amoral, and somehow still this is seen as being totally fine while Google toying around with launching a single product in China but not doing it was quoted as evidence of them being evil in this very thread. And I kind of feel like your reply reinforces that point.
Nah, I don't think it is a false dichotomy in this case. It seems unlikely to me in the extreme that China is going to change its policies in response to pressure from some foreign company, even one as large as Apple.
More generally, I don't think describing countries & cultures that don't share your particular values as evil is reasonable or useful.
Since people seem to think this is an easy set of points to win, consider:
* Apple has virtually no ability to shape policy in China (at least, in comparison to western democracies)
* China (the government, not the people) is not subject to the same limitations as the US government
* Apple depends on China for a great deal of things, including manufacturing, and a market for products
* If Apple can't manufacture and market it's products in China, it's products become more expensive and less available all over the world.
* China passed laws and regulations that demand access to source code
Apple choosing to fight this battle is undoubtedly motivated by the potential business impact of supplying the software that the US government has demanded, and there is no doubt in my mind that if it was a better long term move for Apple, then it's leadership team would concede, and ship the code they were asked for (see: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2472002/endpoint-securi... among other instances).
Apple is using the polarizing nature of the technical details at hand in light of modern concerns about the surveillance state to frame it's argument against what would be a very bad legal precedent that would be disastrous for Apple, and for the tech sector in general.
I don't quite understand where your perceived lack of consistency is - are you implying that Apple didn't try to use every tool at it's disposal to do the best thing for it's investors?
Agreed! If Apple caves in to Chinese pressure on this, what else will they do? Does Xi Jinping's brutal authoritarian regime now effectively make decisions for Apple abroad, since they can always threaten to cut Apple out of the lucrative mainland market?
I'm not an Apple fan, probably more of an Apple hater, but why is Apple the bad guy for seeking cheaper labor? Why is it the consumers problem that China allows it's citizens to be treated like shit? Why is this ethical responsibility somehow always offloaded to the consumer?
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