Yes, I agree. That makes Apple completely beholden to the CCP. If they anger the CCP, their whole business is gone.
But I fail to see how that makes any of this more acceptable. They had 15 years to diversify. They didn't, but chose to instead spent that time just becoming more involved with a brutal autocracy, gambling their whole company on it.
It was stupid (one of the rare strategic missteps by Apple), it was amoral, and somehow still this is seen as being totally fine while Google toying around with launching a single product in China but not doing it was quoted as evidence of them being evil in this very thread. And I kind of feel like your reply reinforces that point.
Apple has obviously compromised themselves here because they are dependent on the good graces of the CCP for their manufacturing, and have caved to pressure.
I don’t think that is in question.
It seems like any company that does something the CCP dislikes is going to face this kind of pressure, and if even Apple can’t resist, the nobody can.
Google obviously chose not to participate in that market at all.
I see a lot of criticism of Apple here, which seems quite reasonable.
That leads me to be curious what people think an acceptable level of participation in the Chinese economy actually is?
Is Google’s move - I.e. exciting entirely - the only ethical option?
For once I find myself in complete agreement with you.
The only reason I have sympathy for Apple in this situation is that at the time they began their investment in China, the US and the West in general believed that China was on a path to liberalization and genuinely wanted to support them as a global ally.
It’s not going to be easy to disentangle from that.
I believe giving into China was a mistake for Apple executives ethically, commercially and politically.
In the long term they’ll be forced to give up all the commercial surpluses to local mega apps by the government, and the political/ethical problems require no elaboration.
So... punish the Chinese people for having an oppressive government by not providing them with the top of the line? It seems more unjust to me. There is no good choice here, only bad and worse — I think Apples presence in China is the lesser of two evils. Same with Google etc.
Yes, it is not that apple is innocent, because they are dependent on the chinese market which CCP controls, apple is pliable in the hands of the CCP and that is why they are over the barrel
You are granting CCP omniscience, power and integrity they don't have.
Apple probably came to China to expand their market, had enough lawyers to navigate the muddy bureaucracy, CCP could block them regardless but decided to let them open shops and profit from taxes for now. Many Chinese would buy Apple products overseas in HK or Taiwan anyway; CCP is powerless to stop it and would not mind a share of the sales.
CCP may be blind to Western values brought in by Apple, or discount their influence, or tolerate them for now because it is economically lucrative.
Apple doesn't help prop up an authoritarian regime? CCP gonna CCP, but at least Apple's hands are clean. It's not any individual Chinese citizen's fault, but they unfortunately have to deal with the consequences of an illiberal, ruthless regime.
I flagged this article and I really would urge everyone to actually read it before commenting.
I am very very concerned about China’s disregard for human rights, and I believe continuing to do business with CCP controlled companies is immoral.
That said, this is unsubstantiated accusations against Apple, which Apple directly contradicts. I believe Apple has a lot of leverage and resources and probably doesn’t want to do business with anyone who will make them look bad.
So what do you want Apple to do? Leave the China market and allow a government owned phone company to take the market share? How is that scenario better for anyone in the US or China?
I mean being angry that the Chinese government isn't great at human rights is one thing, but to point that anger at Apple is a bit misguided, and what do you suggest that would actually make the problem better?
I'll never understand people who expect Apple to try and fight the CCP and inevitably get themselves barred from the Chinese market. It's not principled, it's just dumb and will completely screw over all of their current customers in the country who will now have useless devices. Apple is not a nation-state and has no judiciary or military power, and if they're to have any hope of making positive change in the country they need to play ball to some extent and become a large player who can actually exert some influence.
Whether or not China will clone an app is immaterial to question of whether all companies will fold to Chinese government pressure.
There are many large examples that just didn't, and they exited the market.
There are also many large examples that struck varying bargains. I'm sure the CCP didn't get everything they wanted from the referenced Apple deal, and there were hardliners who were pissed about it.
And then there are probably a ton of examples that don't even care to bargain and just say yes to whatever is asked.
So, complicated spectrum.
Side note, if I'm doing my quick math right, Apple's worldwide revenue is equivalent to 1.6% of China's GDP. Which is pretty impressive.
Having thought through this extensively in my trip off Apple products:
- They have doubled down on "build it in China" for everything, including labor practices that are... not ideal, at a minimum. "Dying for an iPhone" details their last decade or so of labor abuses, or at least "looking the other way while China abuses labor for them."
- As a result of that, and their desire to sell into the Chinese market, they have bowed before the CCP regarding data storage, encryption, etc. For a company that has held a hard line regarding privacy of user information, to see them bow to a rather hostile government like that is very concerning.
- The on-device CSAM scanning, similarly, reflects what can most reasonably be described as "bowing to another government." I know the tech news has abandoned that bit of bad news, forgotten, and moved on to satellite phone stuff, but I consider it turning my own device and resources against me in ways I cannot support.
In the past year or so, Apple has demonstrated that they say one thing out one side of their mouth ("Privacy! Your data is your data! Ethical labor!") while doing other things in practice. So, I'm no longer comfortable supporting them, and am trying not to.
I'm aware that most of this can be applied to the bulk of the consumer tech industry at large, which is another problem, and one I'm certainly trying to ponder through. The main conclusion, I think, is that one ought not buy any new/recent hardware, and figure out ways to work with less. I've been moving over to small ARM computers as I try to find less-hostile devices, but the supply chains upstream there are less-known and a bit of a mystery, so I'm not sure I can make strong claims one way or another. However, I know at this point that Apple hasn't gone about really improving things, instead just looking the other way as Foxconn continues the same tricks.
It's perfectly fine to not care about any of that, and prefer the shiny integrated computer, and I've certainly done that for the past 18 years of my life. But I'm no longer OK with that, and am trying to get clear of it.
Apple is the worst offender here, they really bend over backwards. It is proper to single them out too as they are one of the biggest providers of consumer goods at a high margin. There is absolutely no reason they should be forced to use slave labour in china. That's not to say there are other companies that do the same, but they are not as valuable or provide such a highly visible product.
Imagine the effect if Apple actually took a decent stance here and how it could spread awareness about the conditions there.
Google for instance decided to just pull out of the market, I have a lot of respect for that.
And still Apple hasn't even begun to migrate off from Chinese manufacturers while Samsung has shut down most of its factories in China and heavily invested into Vietnam supply chains. The only meaningful explanation is that Apple still gains a significant chunk of its margin from the China market while Samsung has lost almost all of its market share there. I'm pretty sure that Apple had a clear understanding of this kind of political risks and was willing to take it in pursuit of profit maximization.
If it's moral for those workers in China to take employment working on Apple products, I don't see why it's immoral for Apple to make the deals that create that employment. So no, I don't really see a difference.
Business that especially benefits the Chinese government in particular, or that supports their oppressive activities, sure I can see that. I think Google took a principled moral stance in refusing to provide search services in China when it was clear those services would have to enable surveillance. I don't think they did anything wrong having their Pixel phones manufactured in China.
For context my wife in mainland Chinese, though now a British citizen, we go there regularly and have family there. I spend money in China, and don't think there's anything wrong with myself, businesses, or 'corporations' doing so either whatever we think of the CCP. So this sort of selective virtue posturing really rubs me up the wrong way.
China is a big growing market and the CCP cleverly share a huge piece of the pie with Western companies. Western Democracies are growth addict and China is their dealer.
Another "problem" is that despite its corruption and autocracy, the CCP still manages to make life better for the average Chinese. On the street it is not a hopeless hell, so right now giving up some of their freedom looks like a good deal to them.
So even if Apple manage to break free from its manufacturing lock in, that's a lot of general inertia to go against. Also, considering that Apple approach to privacy is more and more at odd in the Western World, they have enough on their plate already.
But I fail to see how that makes any of this more acceptable. They had 15 years to diversify. They didn't, but chose to instead spent that time just becoming more involved with a brutal autocracy, gambling their whole company on it.
It was stupid (one of the rare strategic missteps by Apple), it was amoral, and somehow still this is seen as being totally fine while Google toying around with launching a single product in China but not doing it was quoted as evidence of them being evil in this very thread. And I kind of feel like your reply reinforces that point.
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