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This is a breathtakingly naive take. Like yes sure, get mad at the CCP but Apple have a long history of shit like this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...



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Yes, I agree. That makes Apple completely beholden to the CCP. If they anger the CCP, their whole business is gone.

But I fail to see how that makes any of this more acceptable. They had 15 years to diversify. They didn't, but chose to instead spent that time just becoming more involved with a brutal autocracy, gambling their whole company on it.

It was stupid (one of the rare strategic missteps by Apple), it was amoral, and somehow still this is seen as being totally fine while Google toying around with launching a single product in China but not doing it was quoted as evidence of them being evil in this very thread. And I kind of feel like your reply reinforces that point.


Exactly. Apple's choice here is either follow Chinese law or get their devices and services banned from China.

The CCP is awful in many ways but I can understand Apple preferring to follow the law rather than lose their second biggest market.


Apple doesn't help prop up an authoritarian regime? CCP gonna CCP, but at least Apple's hands are clean. It's not any individual Chinese citizen's fault, but they unfortunately have to deal with the consequences of an illiberal, ruthless regime.

It's interesting because it shows how much influence the CCP has over the American company Apple.

I flagged this article and I really would urge everyone to actually read it before commenting.

I am very very concerned about China’s disregard for human rights, and I believe continuing to do business with CCP controlled companies is immoral.

That said, this is unsubstantiated accusations against Apple, which Apple directly contradicts. I believe Apple has a lot of leverage and resources and probably doesn’t want to do business with anyone who will make them look bad.

I feel very skeptical of this article.


China CCP is a snake. Get in bed with them and they will bite you one day. It is just their nature. Apple will learn one day.

I'll never understand people who expect Apple to try and fight the CCP and inevitably get themselves barred from the Chinese market. It's not principled, it's just dumb and will completely screw over all of their current customers in the country who will now have useless devices. Apple is not a nation-state and has no judiciary or military power, and if they're to have any hope of making positive change in the country they need to play ball to some extent and become a large player who can actually exert some influence.

Yes, it is not that apple is innocent, because they are dependent on the chinese market which CCP controls, apple is pliable in the hands of the CCP and that is why they are over the barrel

Apple does have a history of standing up to the US governmental agencies. The CCP will not allow Huwawei to operate unless they bend over to them. See what they did to AliBaba a few days ago, not to mention how they disappeared their CEO.

I don't believe that quoting a PR spokesperson is a meaningful response, Apple is obviously a biased party in this investigation. Moreover, Apple has opposed the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act which would penalize companies with forced labor in their supply chains[1]. It also has a history of similar accusations with regards to their LCD screens [2] and their uniforms [3]. All of this is completely ignoring their history with foxconn and other suppliers that routinely abuse their employees without compelling their labor through outright force. Apple might say that they care about this issue, but its clear that their supply chain is setup to take advantage of poor workers from 3rd world countries at a minimum.

[1] https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/23/anti-forced-labour-bill-apple... [2] https://9to5mac.com/2020/03/02/apple-suppliers-implicated-in... [3] https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/10/apple-store-staff-t-shirts/


Seems that the UK market is not big enough. In China Apple had no problems with ceding control of their local servers to the Chinese government [1]. Not to mention of using forced labor (mostly Uyghurs, against which China is committing acts of genocide [2]). So, Apple and human rights my ass!

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide


Don't forget that the PRC *is* committing atrocities, and that Apple lobbies the US against sanctioning the PRC for those atrocities.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u... ("Apple is lobbying against a bill aimed at stopping forced labor in China")


Apple is arbitrarily vulnerable to the CCP who can essentially shut down most of Apple’s worldwide manufacturing if it comes to that.

Until Apple has a redundant supply and manufacturing chain, it’s absurd to expect them to resist the CCP.

I hope they are building it.


CCP doing analysis on foreigners' faces and call contents so that they can cull dissention after they take over in 10 years. But Apple wants to do business there!

You are granting CCP omniscience, power and integrity they don't have.

Apple probably came to China to expand their market, had enough lawyers to navigate the muddy bureaucracy, CCP could block them regardless but decided to let them open shops and profit from taxes for now. Many Chinese would buy Apple products overseas in HK or Taiwan anyway; CCP is powerless to stop it and would not mind a share of the sales.

CCP may be blind to Western values brought in by Apple, or discount their influence, or tolerate them for now because it is economically lucrative.


Yeah, comparisons between Apple and China are invidious. Let's hope China doesn't start an international incident about it.

Since people seem to think this is an easy set of points to win, consider:

* Apple has virtually no ability to shape policy in China (at least, in comparison to western democracies) * China (the government, not the people) is not subject to the same limitations as the US government * Apple depends on China for a great deal of things, including manufacturing, and a market for products * If Apple can't manufacture and market it's products in China, it's products become more expensive and less available all over the world. * China passed laws and regulations that demand access to source code

Apple choosing to fight this battle is undoubtedly motivated by the potential business impact of supplying the software that the US government has demanded, and there is no doubt in my mind that if it was a better long term move for Apple, then it's leadership team would concede, and ship the code they were asked for (see: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2472002/endpoint-securi... among other instances).

Apple is using the polarizing nature of the technical details at hand in light of modern concerns about the surveillance state to frame it's argument against what would be a very bad legal precedent that would be disastrous for Apple, and for the tech sector in general.

I don't quite understand where your perceived lack of consistency is - are you implying that Apple didn't try to use every tool at it's disposal to do the best thing for it's investors?


It's even worse. Apple actively lobbies against bills that try to prevent this.

Apple lobbies against Uighur forced labour bill https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...


If the CCP believed that Apple's absence would strengthen the regime, then they would get rid of Apple. Clearly they think it's in their best interest to have Apple around. You can disagree with them, but I think the CCP is much better positioned to know what's in their interest than we are.
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