> And finally a close friend I have in Europe who had an option to move anywhere choose to stay in Germany the past few years because he feels its much saner and stable than anywhere else right now. I don't see that as an accident.
Germany is very conservative, and some people like things to stay mostly as they are?
> Then Germans get to experience exactly how expats feel in their country.
Not my feeling/experience at all. I’ve moved to Germany 1.5 years ago and the locals are the most welcoming people I’ve ever met. Especially comparing to Singaporeans, where I spent 6 years before.
I live in the North though, if I lived in Bayern my experience would probably be different.
> Once you are financially secure, living in Germany makes no sense.
> How so?
A personal preference. The quality of life is not high, considering the bureaucratic hurdles you have to overcome on a daily basis - dealing with any Amt/Behörde(agency), Schools, Kindergarten, etc. And on top of that - you get penalized for working hard. There is this Goldschnitt situation(golden edge, breaking point), where the taxes get way too high and makes no sense to work above that level.
> They are going to have to be extraordinarily shitty to be worse than what I have already in the UK.
I spent a couple of years in the UK and the services in Germany are way worse. Banks are better in the UK, transportation is better in the UK, at least in major cities(options where you don't have to rely on your car), doing business is easier and cheaper in the UK. Maybe if we compare the NHS vs the german health system, Germany has a slight advantage, at least when it comes to waiting times.
> the insane apartment situation in any major city
Here again - bureaucracy and the car lobby, which gets in the way of any sort of public transport development/investment. So there is space, but people have to bundle around the well connected spots. For example: East Berlin is vast and empty, no transport connections developed for 30 years - only tram and the occasional buses.
> Shitty weather
> To me, constant heat and sunshine is shitty weather. I prefer a temperate/boreal climate. I find it far more pleasant.
It is 50/50 - I would not want to be in Spain in June, July, August and I don't want to be in Germany in January, February, March
That doesn't really track with Germans being amongst the happiest countries in the world, handily beating most of the rest of Europe except Scandinavia. Consider that perhaps the Germans like the changes their Government make? After all, Germany is officially a social democracy, and most Germans I have met lean into that philosophy.
> I live in the US and every other day I see a HN thread saying how America is terrible and how Europe is so much better than here. At the same time, you also see a lot more Europeans coming to the US than the other way around. The reality is that no place is perfect, the grass is always greener on the other side and the US, despite its problems, is a pretty darn good place to live.
This topic is about Germany. Moreover you're replying to an Indian who moved to Germany...
> Indeed, it is jarring when we returned to the US.
No place is a panacea. Berlin surely has its issues. But Europe and Berlin in particular is very nice for this expat from the US. I love that I pay basically nothing out of pocket over what’s taken from my taxes for healthcare. The trains are basically ubiquitous and at least near me just refreshed with new cars. We walk basically everywhere and take transit also. I’m far healthier than when I was stateside driving everywhere. The food has far less harmful things in it. Etc etc.
My cousin who lives in Japan says similar things about Japan. He’ll never go back to Canada where he’s from. The feeling is similar to me and the US though I’ll be bringing my family home to the US eventually because I miss home and the potential for stupid high salaries and what that might do for my retirement fund. But yeah. Europe for the win for the time being.
> Germany will continue slowly declining with whole Europe.
I agree and this is really sad. Thinking of migrating because I plan to have a family and want them to grow up in the best environment. Which countries you guys think will be the best bet?
> My favorite Berlin anecdote is when my wife (then girlfriend) and I first arrived in Germany, she was unemployed for the better part of a year as no-one would give her a chance. She actually got quite depressed about it, and reached out about state sponsored integration courses as the language lessons she was taking were expensive and she wanted to do something more holistic. The authorities told her in no uncertain terms that they didn't care and that there were no places available.
Honestly, as a native German this anecdote rather sounds like your girlfriend saw the good side of the German bureacracy (and life) (you likely haven't seen the bad side ... ;-) ): the girlfriend asked for something and got a direct honest answer. This is German directness, which I would rather consider a German virtue, but often confuses people from other countries where answers tend to be more sugar-coated.
Yes. After living even in a "conservative" town, I feel more welcome than I feel in the city I was born - Istanbul. In my first 5 years, I usually had to ask people to speak to me in German, they usually switched to English to make me more comfortable. Sure, I can give many examples of racism but the great thing about Germany is that racists aren't significant threats to my rights as a resident. Also, I think back in Turkey, there were many more cases of racism - it's just that they don't get any attention among "bigger problems" (what being a bigger problem is another topic I'd rather not dig into). After all, I'm happy that here people are ready to discuss such things.
> Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"?
I would guess if you came here to advance your career, then you are eligible to be an expat. Of course I'm kidding. I think many people, for not-so-evil-but-still-a-bit-disturbing reasons, would not like to be called an immigrant. I actually do not care and am happy with the word.
> - Less outwardness as a social norm. I am sure there will be debate over this. But I think many will agree it is hard to make friends with non-expats even when there is no or little language barrier, compared to many North American social contexts.
Somewhat counteropinion as a native German: It is much harder to make friends in Germany if you do not speak decent German. So simply learn it.
> - Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't for the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during the summer.
Germany has open borders with all its neighbours and freedom of movement. There is a lot of migration, in no way could they be described as an isolated community.
I'm from the UK but moved to Spain and used to live in Germany. I think the trains are better on the Mainland.
>Terrible, terrible wages in tech
This is true for the whole of Europe :(
I agree with you about the racism and uneducated population though - given I now have a foreign non-white SO it's part of the reason I wouldn't want to move back.
Kids will have to stay in school until 18 soon, the law has already passed but I doubt it'll help much if they don't want to be there.
> For many in Eastern Europe emigrating to Germany is no longer attractive.
Not entirely sure why your comment gets downvoted because this is accurate. Pay in germany is at the same level or lower than most east eu countries, in tech, after factoring in the cost of living. Workers in other industries face abuse on a regular basis, at least based on what i was told by many of them ranging from taxi drivers, to factory workers, to phd students. This supposedly allied country is so hostile that when an east european reaches a leading position it makes the news. Instead germany ends up attracting bad apples since no self respecting person wants to work there or in similarly hostile north European countries (ie Sweden). They treat people like cheap labour, get what they pay for, and then complain.
> Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US
It is as a skilled immigrant like my parents.
A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL, because immigrating is expensive. You're looking at $30-50k spent to immigrate.
Germany doesn't provide that drastic enough an economic change compared to the US and Canada, and that's why it's so easy to immigrate to Germany - it isn't as oversubscribed, and those same white collar roles you mentioned end up giving the same if not better benefits in North America via your employer.
For Eastern European or MENA immigrants, Germany makes sense because there is an existing community and it's close to home - not as much for Asians or Central/South Americans.
Furthermore, the xenophobia is real in Germany and across Europe. It's hard to explain to a Gora or Ang Mo, but like you'll never truly become "German" or "French" for a large segment of the population no matter how much you try to assimilate.
> it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US
Because for a large segment of immigrants (especially from Asia and Central/South America and especially among skilled professionals), Germany and much of Europe simply isn't as attractive a proposition. You end up spending a similar amount immigrating but salaries are much lower and communities aren't as established so it harder to recoup costs
Germany is very conservative, and some people like things to stay mostly as they are?
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