> Despite germany's strong dislike for east europeans
It's news to me that we strongly dislike Eastern Europeans?!
Some folks definitely do, especially in logistics or people who live close to the border, mostly due to economic frustration regarding lost jobs and some amount of crime coming from Eastern Europe but Germany as a whole doesn't dislike Eastern Europe...
Yes. After living even in a "conservative" town, I feel more welcome than I feel in the city I was born - Istanbul. In my first 5 years, I usually had to ask people to speak to me in German, they usually switched to English to make me more comfortable. Sure, I can give many examples of racism but the great thing about Germany is that racists aren't significant threats to my rights as a resident. Also, I think back in Turkey, there were many more cases of racism - it's just that they don't get any attention among "bigger problems" (what being a bigger problem is another topic I'd rather not dig into). After all, I'm happy that here people are ready to discuss such things.
> Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"?
I would guess if you came here to advance your career, then you are eligible to be an expat. Of course I'm kidding. I think many people, for not-so-evil-but-still-a-bit-disturbing reasons, would not like to be called an immigrant. I actually do not care and am happy with the word.
> For many in Eastern Europe emigrating to Germany is no longer attractive.
Not entirely sure why your comment gets downvoted because this is accurate. Pay in germany is at the same level or lower than most east eu countries, in tech, after factoring in the cost of living. Workers in other industries face abuse on a regular basis, at least based on what i was told by many of them ranging from taxi drivers, to factory workers, to phd students. This supposedly allied country is so hostile that when an east european reaches a leading position it makes the news. Instead germany ends up attracting bad apples since no self respecting person wants to work there or in similarly hostile north European countries (ie Sweden). They treat people like cheap labour, get what they pay for, and then complain.
> And finally a close friend I have in Europe who had an option to move anywhere choose to stay in Germany the past few years because he feels its much saner and stable than anywhere else right now. I don't see that as an accident.
Germany is very conservative, and some people like things to stay mostly as they are?
> You go to Eastern Europe and wonder how things seem to be progressing much faster there.
Is there a kind of fetish among germans to demonise east europe? Perhaps the recovery process after 45 years of communism is slow and takes time. And perhaps east europeans arent as inferior are a certain german ideology claims they are? Anyway pathetic analogy.
> I assumed they were talking about an event pre-1989.
Same at first, but then having spent time in the South years ago I also realized the prejudice from the North on the South for economic reasons.
The South is typically seen as the most affluent of all of Germany and depending on the Stat the most influenced by politics: as in the case with Baden-Wuttenburg and the Green Party. Hell, people from the Schwabish part (Stutgart) are used looked down on by the rest of Baden-Wuttenburg for being typically very stingy and aloof (even by German standards) and seen as not worth building ties with. I had a bad experience with them, after being warmly welcomed in Germany, but I took that more a random situation rather than anything worth looking deeper into.
It's frankly a very odd situation and makes you wonder why they're even united at all, I spent time in the North near Cologne this summer and to be honest the amount of Turkish people was a very welcomed sight especially how well integrated they were in Society.
I wish I could have remained with that feeling because stuff like this makes me realize how deeply scarred the German psyche is in regards to this topic.
> they speak with disgust about peaceful east european allies and look down on them and sanction their economies at first signs of dissent
Wow this is such a bad comment. I will even be so bold and call it outright lies.
You seem to be talking about Hungary. A country that I actually really like, I was there in my (East German) youth three times, once on vacation with my parents, twice in youth camps, an East German group among Hungarian kids.
Hungary even then was very much oriented towards the West and very modern. Even the ice cream selection was an order of magnitude better than in East Germany, never mind that one could buy Western music and magazines. I loved the country. I loved the food. Well, maybe not some parts of the rooster in my soup.
The problem with Hungary's government now is that they are going down a path of "removing" any opposition and have moved towards autocracy. If they remained a democracy they could have whatever opinion they want. The problem is not their stance towards sanctions, for example, but that they are no longer a democracy.
> Really? You live in a country bordering germany, hungary, slovakia and a few others? Tell me more about it. By the way, I've heard that Germany is a very nice country. By the way, I've heard that Hungary is a very nice country. By the way, I've heard that Slovakia is a very nice country.
>which are neither historic, nor facts
Your opinion, like his opinion might be too categorical and with too little argumentation. The way I perceived the feelings of the eastern europe towards muslims (non-arabs, arabs and turks - very little differentiating between these sorts of muslims): "we don't hate them, but we strongly prefer not having muslim enclaves in our countries like they have in the western europe". Everybody in EE heard about the inconveniences experienced by france, belgium and netherlands due to their incapacity to assimilate the immigrants and no one in EE knows what are the advantages of immigration especially from third world countries. EE simply does not want to make the same immigration/multi-culti experiments that western europe made. There is little hate and no historic hate against muslims when it comes to accepting or rejecting these immigrants but if you think there is no historic hate towards turks in eastern europe, I think you don't search deep enough (it's right after the latent hate against russian domination, which is more recent).
> What would you or your friends parents think if you announced your engagement to a Turkish girl / guy?
I have been in a relationship with a Turkish girl for eight years, dude. Everyone was OK with it. Not once did anyone say anything about it. You know what? It was just fine.
> That's a fairly typical German viewpoint
Did you just assert that I'm a "fairly typical" German racist? If you knew me at all you wouldn't accuse me of painting Germany in an overly positive light. I hate it here.
>I've heard some don't even consider these parts Europe.
Absolutely. I'm from East Europe and you can really feel and notice that when the European Union address certain topics.
This is also the struggle of the former Eastern Bloc countries. Rejected by the west but culturally always closer to them (especially Germany and France) not to the slavic Russia.
> Then Germans get to experience exactly how expats feel in their country.
Not my feeling/experience at all. I’ve moved to Germany 1.5 years ago and the locals are the most welcoming people I’ve ever met. Especially comparing to Singaporeans, where I spent 6 years before.
I live in the North though, if I lived in Bayern my experience would probably be different.
> As a specialist for Turkey I would say that it is much more secular-rationalist than Germany.
Wow, that's surprising, can you expand on that?
I had a Turkish girlfriend for a few years, it felt like I was living in Turkey. (For example, we couldn't hold hands in the street–in Australia!–because Turkish people would see and her family would find out. Being married makes a female suddenly off-limits to male harrassment, but public affection with a boyfriend seems shameful and quite the opposite.) I learnt that e.g. changing your religion in Turkey can get you killed. Then the Islamists took over and it felt like things were getting medieval quickly. But I haven't heard news from there for 5+ years.
"3. Unsexy. Yeah. While I don't actually care much about the public image of Germany, I am saddened that the European idea has lost its appeal and continues losing it. I mean, what could _possibly_ go wrong?"
Coming from a small financial crisis stricken country at the periphery of europe, I would like to tell you this:
There is no "germany". And there is no "those lazy leaches". You have swallowed the bait full. You, are not "germany". And I am not "whatever". Generalizations are the root of all hiding. Your interests are not the same as deutsche bank's interests. Mine interests, are not the same as the corrupted (among others, by german interests) local politicians.
They say "germany" to make you think you are one. They say the "lazy" to give you an external enemy. Creating external enemies, is perfect for hiding your industries' and bankers' fing you as well as me. If you live/work in germany, in general, your salary is artificially lowered, to f you, and indebt other countries, to serve the top industrialists and bankers. You pay for the debt, and then you and me pay again for the payment.
I'm from as Eastern Europe as it gets (European side of Istanbul) and people seem to like me here. Why do you think that they dislike East Europeans?
I mean, Germans don't seem to like the current government of the country where I'm from, but for good reasons and I certainly share their dislike!
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