When people I know cry out and denounce China I say: yeah true, they’re not the paragon of democracy and there’s not much we can do about it now; especially when we’re blind to our own defections and we fail to address what is most certainly within our own jurisdiction
We have to recognize the problem before we can work up the courage. And unfortunately, most people don’t recognize the problem. Worse, there is a tendency for some people to smear you as a right wing Trump supporter when you criticize China.
You don’t have to convince me. But I think it’s a bad sign if defenders of democracy can only get defensive when they have to face mistakes.
Is it really that hard to say we dropped the ball here, badly, and we need to do better, rather than immediately going to whataboutism about China? Yes, they have problems. That in no way contradicts the fact that we need to do better.
I agree with you, though I will caveat that by noting that, as an american, we tend to amplify the faults of our enemies and downplay those of our Allie’s and ourselves. I am by no means a China apologist but the rhetoric between the US and China over the last several years in concerning to me. It feels like people are looking to make everything in this relationship in a good vs evil narrative, no matter which camp you’re in.
What is happening to the Uighurs is easy for me to point out as crossing the line. But something like Hong Kong? As a westerner I was to support democracy and self determination, but by the same token, Hong Kong is indisputably part of china’s sovereign territory and it seems like a lot of people in the US think it’s ok to promote separatism in another country just because it shares our values. Why don’t I ever hear anyone apply that to our allies? ( cough cough Saudi cough)
I find myself sympathetic to the talkie rhetoric not because I believe in communism, but because I grew up in a generation that was lied into the Iraq war, and see similarities with the mind of nationalism that swept the country in the early 2000s. America never really atoned for abu ghraib, gitmo, cia black sites, signature strikes etc. and to me that is way more relevant to anything that we did in the 19th century.
reflexively I am just repulsed by the nationalistic rhetoric on these issues.
I know there are a lot of clamoring here about ‘oh we are becoming this too and that too’. And it’s a natural reaction: we feel like we cannot change anything about China and how it governs its people, so we try to stigmatize our own government. But the truth of the matter is US government is nowhere near the heavy handed ness of China, and we can deal with China to some degree. We can hold China to its actions. After reading about the uigher concentration camps in China, I feel like it’s time to take a stand. It’s time to stop supporting such a bad regime. Time to voice my concerns about China to my government, and vote with my wallet. No more Chinese products if I can. No more trips to Shanghai. I don’t want to help the government terrorize my friends in China anymore.
I think it's precisely an attitude like this which is the problem. The US/UK and China are incomparable. For example, you can say what you just said without consequence. Try that in China. There is no rule of law there, prosecutors get a 99% conviction rate and political opponents are disappeared. The communist government system has killed over 100M and China actively organ harvests political prisoners.
the US and UK may have done terrible wrongs but they are held endlessly to account. I don't want to get into a dreadful endless debate about foreign adventures (I am not a fan of the Afghan or Iraqi wars by the way) but there is just a world of difference between a totalitarian state and a democratic one.
Imagine the police turning up and arresting you for that comment and you disappear never to be heard from again. That is the reality for many Chinese dissidents. Don't undervalue the freedoms gifted to you by the imperfect state in which you live.
Some of us don't have much power. I denounced it online several times, that's all I can do.
People like Lebron James, who thinks of himself like a freedom fighter, when he criticized China he ended up saying he was misinformed and he wasn't educated about the issue.
He loves the money coming from China more than anything else. I want him to be reminded by this. He put his millions before human lives, just like some nazi collaborators did.
I know just what you mean. I lived in China and felt the same kind of shame when the US government or other Americans did wrong, even though it had little to do with me. Chinese people understood immediately when I said the US government does what it wants, often against the will of ordinary people, or without their knowledge or consent, and that good people were working on the problems, but that it was very hard.
That's exactly right. Do we still look down on third-world countries and their lack of democracy? Do we make fun of Chinese censuration? Sadly I've stopped doing that.
This line of thinking just makes people sit on their hands. Individual citizens can always urge their Government to take actions against atrocities such as being committed by China.
The fact that I, a non-citizen can live in US and call out its mass killing of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan denotes the difference between US and China.
Its almost as if people can live in countries other than China and the USA.
But of course, you're right. All criticism of the Chinese state must be couched in the language of America's own failures. They're just like us after all. Maybe when they nuke Japan we will acknowledge our own sins rather than dare criticize our dear friends in the CCP.
I am Chinese, living in China and have been pro-U.S / democracy my whole life. But the recent actions by Trump government, U.S corporations, Fedex etc., and academics (IEEE etc.) made me angry.
The U.S government provided no evidence of Huawai spying or backdoor but acted hysterically to kill Huawei. And your corporations and intellectuals are helping it.
And there are lots of Chinese like me feel the same. Trump and his China haters are pushing away a large group of influential Chinese elites in all different professions, intellectuals, government officials, (yes, there are a lot of pro-U.S / democracy government officials in China), entrepreneurs, engineers, doctors even who used to admire the U.S.
When China was suffering, people were screaming at the top of their voice how unreliable they are and how bad they are. Now the US is suffering, and it has leadership that's easily as bad but you're defending it. It's fine to call out bad behaviour, but not if it's rooted in xenophobia and doublethink.
That isn’t so just because you say it is and it seems like you have no idea what it is actually like to live in China. A lot of the people pushing back against anti-China sentiments are actually former Chinese citizens… and if you look at the anti-China lobby that consists of ex-Chinese you end up with the cult Falun Gong and ultra right-wing Epoch Times. That should already tell you a lot about how unrealistic your sentiments are and who is really pushing this narrative that Chinese people are somehow all slaves who do not know any better.
If you get a bunch of people who are completed disconnected from a constituency deciding what’s best for them you end up with the former British colony of America, the former democratic Afghanistan. As its clear you don’t know the actual sentiments of Chinese people it’s a bit ludicrous to suggest that you know what’s good for them better than they do.
Nobody fought the American war of independence on behalf of Americans. It’s arrogant to think that others need us to liberate them from some imagined subjugation.
While I don't condone President Trump's behavior and his approach towards China, and with US losing its place in the world; I find it equally amusing that we in democratic society are willing to kowtow to an authoritarian regime, despite of its overwhelming [1] state of surveillance, Han-supremacy motifs and funding it with more asymmetrical trade policies. Democracy is eroding in front of our eyes and no one seems to care. Hey, at least we can even protest in the west (while getting tear gassed, but not tanks and bullets causing a massacre like 1989).
"Take that, America!!!" seems to get people entertained. Not defending America, there are plenty of Americans wanting to say "Take that, China!!!".
EU folks are bashing US, US folks are speechless at what their nation is going through, India and China are at arms, Australia has Chinese infestation, Japan is the most Sinophobic country in the world, Taiwan is nervous, Hong Kong is decimated, Eastern EU is going authoritarian, UK is spiraling into isolation, etc.
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