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Yes, use by the military to continue committing genocide against their own people. “Spying” in geopolitical context usually means use against other countries.


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“Spying” looks like editorial click bait. It isn’t even mentioned in the article. The concern I think is domestic use to commit genocide against their own people.

Spying is gaining access to information that someone doesn't want you to have access to. It's not necessarily a precursor to violence even if it is often used to gain a military advantage.

Maybe.

But evvvveryone spies on everyone, except those who cannot muster the resources to do so. It is entirely expected, by allies and enemies alike.

Setting a moral example by Doing the Right Thing would be a ridiculously huge mistake.

Geopolitics is not for nice people.


Spying on military communications during active wartime is part of the game of war and is acceptable. Spying on the general public en masse is not.

Tell that to people who died needlessly during a civil war thanks to the sabotaged communication system that NSA caused. I'm sure their death felt like a diplomatic problem, something people discuss between drinking port wine and eating walnuts on the embassy.

Attacking civil infrastructure of a foreign nation is not spying, especially if that nation has an ongoing war. If one uses the term spying like that, then the term spying has been extended beyond what can possible be reasonable. Just because someones intent is information extraction does not make it any less of an offensive military operation if the method used are offensive military in nature.


Spying in itself is a military act. Sure everyone does it but that doesn't make it nicer.

I never will understand how this spying stuff always is allowed to happen. I know every government does is, but I find it unbelievably dishonest. What kind of relationship is that? I would intuitively see any spying as an act of war, especially if supposedly friendly countries do it.

Spying on allied governments is very common and immensely useful. It helps do things like ensure coordination of policy.

It is, however, incredibly bad form to be caught doing so.


In looking around, I see that you are correct about the general use of "spy."

I thought that the main meanings were 1) spying taking place in opposition to laws in other jurisdictions but legal in the first (eg, British spies in the Soviet Union), 2) spying taking place against economic opponents, often using illegal methods (corporate espionage), 3) citizens spy against other citizens if they use illegal means, and 4) the government spies against its citizens using illegal means.

Only #2 of these might use non-illegal means. Otherwise, I thought that "spying" required a violation of the law.

For example, the US law describes spying as "Any person subject to this chapter who, in violation of the law of war and with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign power, collects or attempts to collect information by clandestine means or while acting under false pretenses, for the purpose of conveying such information to an enemy of the United States, or one of the co-belligerents of the enemy..."

But I see plenty of examples where people use "spying" where I would use "surveillance" or other term.

And you know, ... I'm fine with broadening the use of the term 'spying' for these cases. Thanks for the enlightenment!


What isn't 'spying'?

You seem unaware that spying is a military aggression that doesn't have to be tolerated.

Yes, that's why it's even more important to spy on other countries.

It used to be spying on other people's governments would get people killed or start wars. In some way it will again. Maybe not so obvious this time.

If they are spying for foreign powers, they can in fact be surveilled.

Of course spying is immoral. I sure wouldn't want to be the friend or partner of someone who thinks it isn't.

Torture and genocide are also very old tools in the 'art' of statecraft, so that's not much of an endorsement.

If the supporters of this stuff are really down to 'well everybody does it', perhaps that's a sign that it's really just bad behavior.


But this sort of spying clearly isn't like ordering a bombing run on Berlin or sending a tank division to capture Athens.

Spying isn't even a military operation, it is mostly diplomatic.

Spying has always been common even amongst allies. It is a form of hacked transparency. Countries hide as much as they can.


Yep, the US is a foreign country and hey they do it too. Every country spies!

Spying on other countries is against international law? Since when? That's what countries, all countries, do.

Espionage is often used like that. It's the charge North Korea, China and Iran use to imprison European or US-tourists and journalists.
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