> But is that what you want? In your 40s or 50s, ignored life's other pleasures, maybe never had a family, or haven't spent enough time with them, can't remember the last time you really relaxed, but boy, you've accomplished extraordinary things?
What's wrong with that? The first half of your comment is insightful, but is it really that hard to believe that maybe some people do derive satisfaction from accomplishment?
> Not everyone, but I'd say modern society is hedonistic—we seek happiness instead of achievement and get neither.
I agree on the hedonism but I'm not sure the happiness-achievement struggle is as simple. There are plenty of people who have achieved stuff my some metric (fame, wealth, etc.) and are still deeply unhappy
> A person ought to believe they can do great things.
I think there's pressure on us to think this, but I find that the older I get the happier I am moving away from this idea. I've accomplished a lot in my life and at the end of the day it doesn't bring me satisfaction. What brings me satisfaction is being able to sit quietly with peace of mind and be content with just being.
The desire to do "great things" is paired with an existential anxiety that I don't think is healthy. And not to be political, but often "great things" mean accomplishments that don't correctly model externalities like environmental damage and human exploitation.
> you may have self-gratified at the expense of not achieving long term things (which often require being momentarily unhappy)
At 43, having achieved a few things that even most people at this relatively high level have not, I wonder if I have not accepted too many times that the delay of gratification, was, in and of itself, evidence that the action would take me further toward my goals. Unfortunately, I don't know any way to learn how to recognize suffering-for-the-sake-of-suffering except by getting caught in those traps now and again. I have read philosophy, law, psychology. It doesn't really seem to have made a difference. Maybe it has and I simply can't perceive the mountain for all the gravel.
> An infinite amount of possible achievements is no excuse not to strive for anything.
If they're striving for happiness and they are happy, mission accomplished right?
I assume they'd still have their own goals and hobbies outside of work or things which bring in money. Why assume those things don't matter?
> Still, I'm only in my 30s, and it feels like my life is pretty much done.
The problem may be your mental model of what “life” is. Imagine you were born, like much of the world, in a village in a third world country. Would your conception of life and what it means be conducive to your personal happiness?
> What would you expect people to do? Most people want a peaceful life with their friends and family, passing their time pleasantly until they die.
No they don't. Most people want success and to follow their passions when they're young, get knocked around a few times by life, get older and decide to chill out and focus on building their families instead.
They learn to be happy with what life has given them, which is generally a good thing, but it does not mean it's the only thing they've ever wanted.
> Angst about what you've accomplished is about the processes in your mind
Yes. All of this insecurity and fear about what one has accomplished is nothing more than processes put into peoples' mind as children about what they should accomplish, should be. What is the point of feeling sad about your life?
More importantly, why do they feel sad about their lives? Is it truly their decision, based on what they truly wanted, or an expectation that society (i.e. just other people) imposed on them? I have always lived with a sense that what I chose to do is meaningful and important for no other reason than I chose to do it. Why does one need more of a reason in life to reach goals than that, as long as you can satisfy your basic needs?
> Note that I'm responding to a specific comment that implies being happy is extremely difficult. Those two things are in my book of "extremely difficult", and I'm bringing them up as examples of the fact that goals are not choices. You can choose to train, but you can't choose to become an Olympian. But I can't figure out if you agree or disagree with happiness being extremely difficult to achieve.
I would say difficult, but not extremely difficult. Your examples require a lot of external resources and material goods to achieve, and the services of others. What we're talking about is possibly altering your food intake, maybe a supplement or two, and other than that it's just your own self discipline.
> I don't think I can make sense of this statement... if something has many requirements, and something to a great degree, how can you say that it is merely a choice, and that anyone can do it?
Because everyone has a brain and a will and those are in the vast majority of cases all you need to do it.
> The average person, by definition, is not great. So why are you saying anyone can do it, in the end, that anyone can be great? Simplicity is not relevant here. Winning a race is simple - just run faster than everyone else.
I would say the gateway to happiness is realizing that you are in fact not great, that you are not destined to be famous or wealthy, and to embrace just being the best you that you can be. Embrace average, buy better beer, enjoy the luxuries you can afford instead of pining for the ones you can't.
> What made you decide that changing how you think is simple, easy, and readily available?
Well again I said no such thing, I said in comparison to becoming an Olympian or being elected President that this was easy. There are a lot of other things that are easier than those two things. Altering the way you think just requires self discipline, self policing, and commitment. There's no magic solution or program or book, it's not self help tapes or a twelve step program. It's something you decide to do for you with the resources you were born with.
I've made radical changes to how I think in the last few years and in so doing have greatly improved the quality of my life, and the first step on that journey was realizing that I was just a regular guy, I would never be a celebrity, never be very wealthy, never be famous and never be some massive achiever, and that there was nothing wrong with that. It hurts at first because our society tells us to a large degree that that is how you succeed in life, but after awhile, you learn to appreciate average. Since then I've never been happier.
> If it makes you feel any better I delayed having kids and spent my 30s dating and hanging out and going to bars – and it was terrible.
I didn’t have kids until my 40s – didn’t delay, it just worked out that way – after getting married in my late 20s, spending…very little time dating or hanging out in bars, and it was wonderful. So was having kids. And once I had them, I certainly wouldn’t have minded having more of the energy of youth with them, but I also don’t mind the life experience that I had first.
> I had a nice career and could go anywhere and do anything I wanted, but it turns out none of that made me even a little bit happy. […] Happiness is extremely overrated.
Happiness isn’t overrated; as you yourself explicitly note, you didn’t find it and were miserable because of that.
> Now I’m tired and busy and I don’t go out and do “fun” stuff very often, but I’m much more satisfied. My biggest regret is that I waited so long to start my life. Brunch isn’t life.
Brunch (both literally and, as I understand the use, metaphorically) very much is life (not all of life, but, in its slice, as much “life” as anything else), for many people.
So can kids be, for many people.
So is anything you have a passion for, whether its the activity, or the companions, or the mission motivating the activity. (Bonus if it is a combination of all of those.)
Doing things merely because you’ve got the idea that it is socially expected that they will provide happiness, though, usually isn’t going to be it.
> Finally, I must at least address the question of whether greatness is worth the large effort it requires. Those who have done really great things generally report, privately, that it is better than wine, the opposite sex, and song put together. The realization that you have done it is overwhelming.
Is this just a momentary high, or does it result in a lasting effect on one's mood/disposition?
Reflecting on my personal (not "great") achievements, I'll feel a momentary sense of pride, which is a good thing to be able to feel from time to time, but largely inconsequential to my day-to-day.
> On most days I just want to meditate, catch up with family, exercise and perhaps hang out on the beach or travel to exotic places.
Is there something wrong with that?
As far as I can tell, there exist certain rare people who really, really enjoy things that the rest of the world finds tedious. These people get good at those things, not because they want to be the best, but because they enjoy doing them. It's not weakness to prefer to spend time with family, it's human...
Indeed. And I would argue that if you're not, on the whole, living a happy life then something is broken and needs to be fixed.
> I don't think anyone genuinely holds the belief [...]
Oh, lots of people hold this belief, at least in the US. I think it's reductionist in the extreme (if you aren't a productive drone, you have no value as a person), but it's not all that rare.
My response is "if that's the sort of life that makes you happy, who am I to argue?"
> Life isn't supposed to be a constant pursuit of cutting out any unwanted or negative things. It's about experiencing things in general.
Says who? My goal is 100% to cut out all unwanted things. Even going so far that I only want things that
I know bring me joy. Automate all chores and stop doing anything that I have the slightest doubt about. I'm at a stage now where I don't care if I never experience anything new. I could die happy continuing doing what I'm doing for the rest of my life.
>I used to agree with this, until I realized that without goals, I had nothing to really strive for. Nothing to stretch myself towards. Nothing to achieve.
Honest question. What happens to you if you stop 'striving for' something, intolerable boredom?
>I truly believe that we live in the best possible time
This depends on your metric for "best", which I get the idea has something to do with comfort. I agree we live in the most comfortable times. Is comfort something worth seeking? If that is the case what drives people to push themselves to do uncomfortable things, i.e. run marathons, climb mountains, build structures, develop careers? I would argue it is the sense of accomplishment to an extent.
I do think we live in the most comfortable of times, but that gives me no satisfaction. The lack of satisfaction makes us dwell on mortality. I don't think I would care if I was killed during a hunt or contracted a virus after having lived a fulfilling life. So to what extent is technological progress and economic growth useful if I get no satisfaction from it?
>we seek happiness instead of achievement and get neither.
Probably because we've been conditioned (through billions of dollars, spent yearly, on marketing) to believe that happiness comes with the acquisition of certain items, status or experiences.
We've conflated happiness with dopamine rushes and short-lived pleasure, and believe the feeling can be elongated by merely emulating the actions which either provided both or could provide more of both.
Many of us have also altered our lives to support the above mentality - living in densely packed cities with air and sound pollution, or poor commutes, working around the clock, or in chaotic and stressful companies, doing ultimately purposeless or even outright destructive work, with the hopes of gaining more money or more status to fund the above, etc.
Coupled with the increasing social isolation and division, the never-ending outrage we're told to feel over today's new issue, which we as a civilization are going through, it's not hard to see why people are finding it hard to say they're happy.
> You might never get end up with the life you wanted when you were 15, but few people do. Does "getting exactly what you wanted when you were young and then never being challenged/learning/changing" sound like the recipe for a happy life well lived?
> There are moments in later life where everyone feels that way.
old Successful Career guy: should have spent more time with family and friends <starts sobbing>
old Poor Artist guy: should have worked harder and more conservative then I could have afforded a house, now I have to rent <gets all whiney>
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the question is the mental state developed. are you somebody who regrets everything and is never happy with what you have because you alwaya need more? or are you able to be grateful and enjoy calmly small things and accept how life is?
What's wrong with that? The first half of your comment is insightful, but is it really that hard to believe that maybe some people do derive satisfaction from accomplishment?
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