You make the big assumption that countries are surprised to be spied on. Granted, the head of French military intelligence was absurdly inadequate, but are generations of spies in those countries clueless? Probably not.
I like to think it's just possible that some modern countries don't pull this stuff and are genuinely shocked at just how much espionage we UK and US folks indulge in.
I spoke to someone in intelligence and apparently for a while, France spied quite a bit on the US. Spying on allies is not as uncommon or taboo as most others would think it is.
This is not a surprise anymore. NSA spied on every country/leader, enemy or ally. They spied on France probably to steal patents or know-how and not to protect Americans. I am sure the next few months/years we will discover NSA spied on countries like England, Germany, Japan, Italy, Brazil, Indonesia, South Africa, Australia... I am not going to quote 200 countries but I think you see my point here.
Is anybody even remotely surprised? even slightly? Any country with sufficient power will spy on any and all people, countries and entities it can. If they don't either something bad will happen (and the public will be demanding to know why someone didn't do anything about it) or they will be out-maneuvered by countries that do.
Information is power and all types of information add to a map of what's going on and with who. Companies/Corporations are modern day dukes, robber barons and tyrants, and people with power and influence have always been spied upon.
We can't really be upset or surprised that U.S. officials are being targeted by foreign espionage efforts. Every major country (with a foreign intelligence service) is spying on every other major country. That's how it works.
What we can be upset about is how clueless some gov't officials appear to be, though.
Every country spies on their nominal allies. That part is not unusual or unexpected and has a long historical tradition. You can find story after story on this.
“Allies” are only allies for reasons of national interest, not because they are genuinely friends, whatever that would mean between countries.
Of course, there’s still outrage when they get caught. Here, for example, is Germany being outraged that the US spied on them. [1] And here’s Germany spying on France [2]. But they all know it’s going on.
And here’s a good quote from French intelligence:
> “If Hollande was genuinely shocked by these allegations, that would mean he wasn’t aware that this kind of thing is normal,” he said. “But of course he is aware. Hollande has to satisfy the feelings of the general public by expressing some indignation, but the truth is all countries spy on their friends and the only limitation is the means at their disposal.
It follows the same vein as "spying on allies" which -- until recently -- was tin-foil-hat conspiracy territory.
Not at all. Nations have been spying on their allies since there have been nations and spies. Anyone "shocked" by those revelations is either putting on a show or rather naive.
Also, the combination with having a military mestastazing like mad all over the world is what makes the spying kinda extra creepy. I guess there were times when France was declaring itself as the beacon of freedom and democracy while waging war on the poor and non-aligned (internationally, that is), but that was before I was born.
That the spying itself is out of control, too, doesn't help. Then there is the amount of international communications that go through the US, versus the amount that goes through France.
There's not even a comparison -- a far cry from "the only difference is media spotlight". (reminds me of Bush voters talking about liberal media btw... if that offends anyone, good, because it takes real energy or natural talent to dismiss differences of orders of magnitude that easily)
That kind of thinking is the product of availability bias: you think about NSA's foreign activity, because it's been leaked en masse. But it would be incredibly naive to think that major European countries --- not just the UK, but particularly France and Germany --- haven't been doing the exact same things for years. When we get to talking about "foreign intelligence", we are talking about pure SIGINT, of the sort that has been practiced since before the computer era --- in fact, the sort of SIGINT that presaged and motivated the computer era to begin with.
> It isn't even the first time GCHQ has been caught spying on other European countries
The polite open secret of espionage is that spying on your allies isn't just normal, it's part and parcel of basic modern statecraft. Being able to anticipate the moves of your allies, understand their thought processes, and watch them for compromises are all incredibly useful things, and the first two very important for working closely with an ally. This is, quite frankly, normal stuff.
What generally doesn't happen is public discussion of it. The public tends to think of espionage as something that would only ever be directed against enemies or threats. That's at odds with the information that enables diplomacy to function well. Every world leader knows their allies are spying on them, and tries to do the same in return. The only weird thing is being publicly exposed, at which point every leader postures against the thing they all rely on.
There's really no need to suspect a commercial conspiracy when normal diplomacy is sufficient to explain this kind of thing. But I guess this is boring by comparison to imagining that a historical financial center only functions through ill-gotten commercial intelligence.
Yeah, I totally agree that leaders of state must expect to be spied upon - much as they must expect media attention. What I'm less enthusiastic about is the spying on people who are unlikely to ever have any strategic significance.
My point was that even though they are allies there are normal & public interactions around spying. So yes, very much expected. The unexpected thing is people assuming allies don't spy on each other.
European governments certainly have not known for very long about their diplomats being spied upon. That story, in my opinion, could really have some legs.
The risk is asymmetric. France relies on the US for defense. The US does not rely on France. Therefore, it's unsurprising when the US spies on France (or Germany or other NATO ally).
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