I think he’s pointing out the irony in conservative views. They bemoan the erosion of traditional gender roles, but undermine those roles by opposing a generous welfare state.
But, I mean, obviously it would be good if most workers made enough to support a family with a single income.
>Conservatism generally follows the principle of “be conservative in your attempts to alter society”.
This is a nice fuzzy thought, but doesn't seem to be true in practice. It's not about conserving society, but the status quo. Society seemed to do pretty well with Roe v Wade.
Well, since female is something you are, while conservative is something you think, I imagine the reason for the latter discrepancy is probably quite different from the reason for the former.
Is that what you were going to say? It looks like you forgot to conclude your point.
Hmm, not quite. Conservatism is more about everyone being in their proper place, within some hierarchy. For instance when France fell to the nazis they needed a new motto to replace “liberty, equality, brotherhood”. They chose “work, family, country”. You can see where it comes from. A mans role is to obey his boss, a woman’s role is in the home, and everyone is loyal to the state. Everyone in their place. In the United States it’s usually expressed as “god, family, country”, which is pretty much the same.
I thought it was the view that women and men were different, and that an embrace of that fact would reveal askew sex ratios for different occupations.
Also, what group claims individualism as their value? Liberals or conservatives? I suspect many people would say they are pro individual freedom and rights when framed as individualism vs collectivism. Also, do conservatives champion individualism or community?
> Believing in the institutions of family (and monogamy as a commitment to that institution), the objective rule of law, moral obligation through duty of various kinds of community service, prudence, faith as an integral part of worldview, a sense of community that can possibly be expressed through nationalism, the notion that people must act responsibly to the extent they are able and assume responsibility for their actions - these are not ideals of 'entitlement' frankly.
I kind of agree with you. However - maybe I am wrong - but you seem to equate these values with "conservatism" and believe other people think these are ideals of "entitlement". I don't think non-conservatives, myself included think that way or don't believe in these values. But feel free to correct me if I misunderstood you.
Just because modern society evolved from a society that used to be conservative doesn't mean conservatism isn't a counter-culture now.
Consider the following statements, compatible with conservative values.
I believe in God.
Nature has given the sexes roles to fulfill: that men shall provide and lead the family; that women shall raise the children and tend to the household.
There are two genders. Someone who pretends to be non binary or "transgender" is a freak.
Christians are more trustworthy than atheists.
One should be a good Christian in their daily lives.
Prayer is an important part of the day. Everyone should pray.
Women are an earthly vessel for God's life, and abortion is a sin against God.
...
Someone expressing the above sentiments in a non-sarcastic way anywhere on HN or Reddit would be downvoted to hell. And I didn't even dare venture into the racial views of conservatives.
If there's any difference between the conservative and liberal positions on women's rights or capabilities in comparison to men's, the conservative position tends towards the restriction of women's rights and a characterization of women as having less capability in decision making or leadership.
That the conservative position has liberalized over time to meet the liberal position in a lot of places and on a lot of subjects is good. That doesn't change the fact that when the conservative position differs from the liberal position, it differs by offering some sort of biological or religious defense of discrimination against women.
>If you actually believe conservatives think this way, you'll never actually convince them of anything because you're speaking at them as if they are children.
I don't think that observation is controversial, or that children are the ones who either originate or maintain these beliefs in society. Also, I don't think that you should pick your beliefs about reality based on their marketing potential rather than observation and the historical record.
It's bizarre to me that this is an opinion people have unironicaly. Conservatism is not equivalent to Nazism. For society to actually function there needs to be a healthy tension between the status quo and possible reform
Conservatism is tolerating racism, tolerating police shootings, tolerating Nazis, tolerating inequality, tolerating the poor dying of curable disease while the middle class goes bankrupt from the expense of having a baby, tolerating the destruction of wilderness and national parks, tolerating ever growing climate change, tolerating school shootings, tolerating sexual harassment - but refusing to tolerate (LGBT) love, refusing to tolerate women being equal, refusing to tolerate trans people peeing (anywhere at all).
Conservatism is morally bankrupt and ethically untenable.It shouldn't be tolerated.
> Conservatism generally follows the principle of “be conservative in your attempts to alter society”.
This isn't what conservatism is. It's about conserving the values and traditions of the past. Modern conservatives advocate for drastic changes to society of many forms. Banning abortions, eliminating the income tax, making sodomy illegal, etc. These things all have in common that they were the way society used to be. Making big changes to social norms after decades of precedent isn't a conservative approach.
am i misunderstanding what conservatism is?
or do people disagree with the idea of equality between men and women?
or with the idea that valuing family more would be better?
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