Am I the only one that would love to be able to buy a dumb TV? I have a Roku and a satellite provider, they can't provide me with anything I don't already have. I would even be fine with a tuner free TV with no software on it. Give me a handful of HDMI inputs and be done with it.
I want a nice screen of decent size and performance that I can turn on and off, that's it.
I don't want to pay extra for crappy software that erodes my privacy, provides horribly performing media applications that rot and eventually stop working but there's almost no option whatsoever on the market, even at (or especially at) the high end range.
I'm at the same spot. I have refused to buy a TV for the past year (after I moved out of a furnished apartment) because I can't find a simple, non-Android/whatever-other-OS TV.
I refuse buying a TV that comes with a mic or camera embedded, I almost bought a Philips Ambilight but backed off when a friend's one got stuck in an update loop and now don't accept input from the remote anymore when I was visiting, we were stuck watching it with a big black box covering 1/8 of the screen telling us there was an update to be performed.
I just want a nice screen, I have an Apple TV, a Nintendo Switch and a Chromecast for whatever else I might need...
Your complaints/criticism in your 3rd paragraph are valid, but we use a Smart TV (Samsung) and it does simplify the process of watching Hulu, Netflix, Amazon or HBO on our screen without any wires or setup other than username/password. Definitely passes "the grandma test" in useability and value. Never had an issue with the software or anything .. if we did, I would definitely be upset with it, but I'd want to recreate the experience with a better Smart TV, not go backwards and have to fiddle with extra wires/devices.
The last time I bought a TV it took a bit longer because I insisted on buying a dumb TV. Privacy is a large issue for me, but also not loading my TV up with software that it simply doesn't need.
I ended up getting a TV that is not from a major brand, but has ended up looking just fine to me. I would love if more manufacturers continued / resumed selling dumb TVs of high quality.
Would a monitor do it for you? I've got a 32" monitor that cost about $500, and it doesn't have any smart features whatsoever, not even a video camera. It's not as big as most people's living room TVs seem to be, but it's enough for my taste. If I wanted a really massive screen, I guess I'd get a projector.
This assumes that you've got a small computer handy for delivering content, but a chromecast or a roku or all kinds of other things could probably do the trick for that.
That's funny because I've been planning to but a TV for use as a monitor. Looking for 4K UHD curved 55" with 4:4:4 of course. This would be like having 4 (2x2) 27" 1080p monitors, including having them angled inward. I figure my desktop would be partitioned into 3 columns each 1280 wide, so playing 720p video would be 1/9 of the screen space.
I'm told that TVs have lower refresh rates that make them unsuitable to use as monitors. Have you looked into that? Maybe it's only relevant if you're gaming.
We have 2 Vizios that do just this. They're still kind of slow to start up, but they work great with our laptops plugged into them. They're also super cheap — got a 48" from Best Buy for $200 and a 39" off Craigslist for $75.
This is what I have been planning for when I have the cash. I started looking for a good one that I could use for PC gaming as well(not that I have much time altely :-p), luckily for me it won't be for a while and hopefully the price will come down haha
That might work for a 26 inch screen but it doesn't work for a 46 inch screen.
A 46 inch monitor costs a fortune compared to a 46 inch tv, and it usually doesn't have features like HDR. Most of them are orientated towards "public display" type uses rather than being used as tvs.
What stops you from using your TV just like that - a dumb TV? Connect it to power and don't connect it to any network and all you have to do is to use your HDMI inputs, volume control and picture adjustment. Ignore everything else. I use it like that. Never had I had to update my TV's software.
The only smart TV I have atm I got with my phone and I did this very thing. I used to have it hooked up to the Wi-Fi but decided to reset everything on it and disconnect it completely (refuse to give it Wi-Fi credentials) and let it be used for what it's used best: being a TV.
That's what I do with my Samsung TV. It rewards me by making the sound gradually lose sync with the video. I have to turn the TV off and back on again about once an hour to resync.
I've often wondered what kind of brain dead software failure is responsible for this. The sound+video come from my Humax box via HDMI into the TV. The TV decodes both, shows the video and plays the audio out of the analogue jack on the back. I plug that into my sound bar (because the TV doesn't support Audio Return Channel, despite being quite new). Rebooting the Humax box and the soundbar doesn't help the sync.
My guess is that the thing decoding the HDMI signal feeds sound into the DAC buffer for the audio jack but never checks to see how full that DAC buffer gets. I suspect the DACs reference clock isn't synced to the HDMI data, so clock skew gradually builds. After 2 hours, there is about 1 seconds worth of audio buffered there.
It's the kind of thing that gets overlooked when the software team are forced to write a load of crap smart TV stuff when they should be focusing on the basics.
The people that write the HDMI and DAC firmwares aren't the same people that make the Android apps that the TV software basically is nowadays. Though investing in the latter might mean skimping on the former.
More expensive, longer startup times, and strange proprietary buttons on the remotes that if you accidentally press them you have to wait 2-3 minutes before you can exit out of them.
That's how I use it, but you're still paying for the stuff you're not using. Instead of buying their atrocious software, I'd like to spend it on better display characteristics.
Would you mind giving the brand? I don't know if it would be available in the US, but it's always good to have more pointers.
Also, what size? At the smaller sizes, monitors are competitive with TVs and avoid the smart stuff, but at the larger sizes (40"+) monitors tend to be extremely expensive compared to "smart" tvs.
And this is why we bought a regular non-smart TV a few months back with 3 HDMI ports.
I have a Roku and a Chromecast connected to it and that's about it.
I was looking at smart TVs but decided against that, i have a Roku anyway and for the most part it will be easier to upgrade the device in the future than the TV.
Would you mind giving the brand and model of the TV? I've been searching around, and some Vizio models seem close, but otherwise it's just monitors, mostly on the smaller size, and much more expensive (?) at the larger sizes than "smart" tvs.
Vizio has a bunch of TVs that offload almost all the "smart" stuff to an Android tablet, which is also your main remote. Some don't even come with the tablet (I think). They also comes with a small, very simple remote which I use.
The only smart stuff the TV has built in is Chromecast functionality.
they are updating these tvs with apps because it wasnt received well. you get a popup that says "give us your address for a new remote" and they are sending a remote with more buttons so you can interact with the interface.
Yup! I don't even use any of the features on my smart TV. That's what my PS4 is for. I'm sure people who have Chromecasts, Apple TVs, Rokus... and whatever other Internet-connecting devices you have to attach to a smart TV anyway feel the same way.
Nope. In fact just a couple of months ago I walked into Target and said "I want a dumb TV." After a funny look we found the last Dumb TV: a 50" Element... it ended up costing less than $200. It was the last Dumb TV they had and it was a floor model.
At the time I bought it, the model number didn't even appear in LG's own range documentation, but it was sold at Tesco in the UK for a while possibly as some kind of experiment. It appears to have been discontinued now: http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-43UF675V
For a lot of us the built in TV tuner is that annoying thing we occasionally trigger by accident, and the cause of annoying inputs to skip over when selecting display source...
There are some cheap Philips 4k monitors over 40".
I got your point - why not buy a smart TV and never connect it online? You wouldn't care what is inside if you aren't using it anyway. I have a 55" Samsung 4k and couldn't care less about SW inside. All I do is to route HDMI through A/V receiver and use it as a 4k monitor for my main computer, TV for Kodi NUC and gaming screen for Zotac NEN Steambox...
I would care because it means convincing the sales people to let me test said TV without a network connection to see that it doesn't e.g. nag me about lacking connection, or have delays when starting due to trying to connect or similar crap. It's annoying enough with the clutter in the UI related to features (analog TV, inputs I have no use for) that we only ever notice because it occasionally gets in our way. And that's on a "dumb" TV.
I also care because I don't want to encourage more of that crap.
Monitors don't come in 65" and 75" sizes though. I've tried using a 42" "monitor" in my living room but due to the rather odd shape of the room (very long) I could barely see it, couldn't even make out subtitles.
I agree. I want one that will handle auto-switching of inputs nicely, and that will be trivial to control on/off, input and volume on via a universal remote. Everything else is an annoyance. Haven't used the built-in tuner or any of the other functionality on a TV in 17 years.
Only reason I'm not buying a monitor instead of a TV is size.
> Am I the only one that would love to be able to buy a dumb TV?
You can find them if you look; Newegg, for instance, has quite a few, but most (even those identified as TVs rather than monitors or digital signage in the item description) are in the Monitors category under computer systems, and not the LCD/LED TV sections under electronics.
Above about 46” it looks like it's all super expensive monitors and digital signage (but some refurbished units that aren't too expensive), below that they seem to have some actual TVs with reasonable prices and other units in a similar price range.
The TCL P 607 and (LeEco Super4 to a lesser extent) changed my mind. Roku built in, one remote, arc/cec, can control the volume right from it. I can adjust tv and roku settings all without finding the other remote. I dont get in spots where I have to decide if the setting is a TV setting or a roku setting. I like the fire platform as well, and I could see their element tvs having a similar benefit. I'm still not a fan of samsung that much, lg has grown on me, and AndroidTV (leeco/sony) has some real nice polish to it in places. As long as they keep updating the roku, I am happy.
having used tcl, sony, leeco, lg, vizio, and amazon software somewhat extensively in the last year, I do now prefer the basic apps to just work right from the tv. its one less thing to troubleshoot. i didnt fully come to believe i liked smart tvs more until i started to notice how little bit worse the roku+vizio experience was than the roku/tcl experince. one phone app to control the device vs two. never having a cec problem. random hdcp failures are nonexistant.
I will say, it is telling my favorite smart tvs all run software made by other software companies, and not tv companies (Roku, Google, Amazon, Apple.)
I had 2 Vizo TVs that I loved. Got a new one and it was crap. The software required me to use a phone app to set it up! It went back to the store. It is pretty hard to find a TV without crapware. The key is to find one that you can setup with the remote and then disable the Wifi/Ethernet.
I was able to buy a used 55" Vizio that had become "bricked" after it lost power during an update for $50.
I replaced a $60 board and it was as good as new.
Also, got a 55" Sony for free, similar situation. All it needed was a firmware flash via USB (was very specific as to USB size/format), and it works fine.
None of these TVs are connected to any network, nor will they be ever again (as long as I own them).
Also, I see Amazon has a 43" Viewsonic "commercial" 1080p display for ~$450: http://amzn.to/2iu2cCB. I know, they have a TCL 55" 4K w/ built-in Roku for $50 less.
Smart TVs are such a stupid idea. A TV should last 5-10 years. The software and chips shipped will become irrelevant in 1-2 years time. Just buy regular TV + crhomecast/firestick/raspbery-pi/etc.
Well that's one way to guarantee the customer upgrades to a new phone. I wonder if it'll be possible to brick a device via OS update when Oreo's hardware abstraction layer goes into place.
I owned a Nexus 6P since near launch. It was great when it worked but it went through 4 RMAs. After that the next time I had issues I asked for a refund from Google Play and they gave it to me. Paid for (some of) my new Galaxy S8+
Them: "Why isn't your TV on the Wi-Fi and why aren't you using the built in apps?"
Me months later when crap like this happens: "To prevent situations like this."
More seriously, I wouldn't buy a TV if I didn't expect it to work, literally, out of the box. Hence I don't need to upgrade it either.
I don't want new features. I don't want to connect it to my Wi-Fi. I don't want to use any built-in UI for watching Netflix. I just want a dumb video output device that works regardless of what I plug into it.
While I watch TV, my Samsung keeps popping up messages ontop of my show... "The ESPN app will be deprecated on July 2nd 2020". I don't care. I don't use that app. I just use netflix. Its super annoying.
I think I'm going to disconnect it from the net after reading this article. I guess the one a few months ago bout the NSA turning it into a microphone didn't concern me as much as losing access to netflix.
I decided the same a year ago. Turns out, you can't disconnect it once it's connected -- it refuses to forget networks or previously set passwords if they worked. I had to just change my wifi password and update everything else.
Really this is a widespread problem in electronics not limited to TVs. I have bought two different Android phones in the past 7 years on Amazon for a certain cell phone provider that have been rendered essentially unusable after OTA updates. It's a small sample size, but both have occurred about two years after the phones hit the market.
The first was a Galaxy S4 I bought in 2013. It had only a decent camera but it got the job done. An update was pushed in summer of 2015 that caused the phone to lock down every time I tried to open my wifi ''more settings'' option. Because I purchased it from Amazon, I could not get any technical support outside of the vendor (who wanted me to hard reset the phone...okay, great, until I get to the configuration screen on first new boot and it locks down because, guess what, it opens wifi more settings to let you select a network).
The second was an HTC One M9 that I bought shortly after that debacle. This phone was very snappy and had a stellar camera on board. It was also surprisingly rugged given that I dropped it at least 8 times on concrete with never more than a few scuffs on the meta. Early this summer I got an OTA update on the phone that broke GPS and MMS. Oh and did I mention one of the updates the prior year made it so you cannot stop the updates from installing--that the phone will restart 24 hours after first receiving the new update, regardless of what you do or who you're on the phone with?
So, I settled for a dumb phone. A $30 flip phone. And when I go on vacation I take a professional camera with me instead.
There is a systemic issue that we are serfs on the lands of tech giants (I think I read that great phrasing from Naval Ravikant). We pay up front for the pleasure of hardware, but are held hostage of usability of the device by the software that actually runs it--just as the land you buy upfront is still at the mercy of governmental bodies allowing you to keep it.
Family and friends look at me funny when I tell them I try to build whatever electronic I want when I am able to. I won't let my music player, fitness tracker, or smart home features be held hostage to 1) the longevity of these companies and 2) their mercy for not bricking my device. And unfortunately many consumers just don't care enough so it will be difficult for us to reach a critical mass of complaints.
My last phone was OTA updated to start showing full page ads.... Almost drove me crazy looking for the source because it looked like it was the launcher or some other app. Finally solved it by installing a firewall app, and will never buy that brand again (Kingzone) despite loving the hardware. It's the first phone where I've gone back and bought a second device of the same brand when I wanted to update because I loved my first one, and they've now burned that loyalty forever.
I wonder if the ads will make up for the lifetime loss of the people the piss off.
Most ( All ) of the problems with the current (Smart)TV are those who manufacture them aren't Software company. They may not necessarily make bad TV, after all we are only left with a few Display Panel manufacturer to choose from. But they simply give up OS update / software development after they are shipped, (this is also true to most IoT Devices.) And in the case they do ship and update, this is an example what we got from Samsung.
Luckily, there is finally leaks that Apple (0) may be making its own TV Set (1), instead of STB. And even Benedict Evans changes his tone on the subject. (2)
I never buy the argument that Apple should not enter the TV market because it is low margin, slow replacement cycle, and small unit volume. Because that would means Apple stop making its Magic Keyboard, Mouse, Router.
Xiaomi 60" 4K TV Set using LG Panel are sold for ~$750 USD in China. If we assume TV Sets in China, due to fierce competition are all selling at Zero net profits, there is no reason why Apple cant sell the "same" TV set with its tvOS for $1K. And it would still sell well.
[0]Apple may not be the best Software company, but software update for their Appliance, AirPod, AirPort etc has been very decent so far in their History.
I hate crowd funding with a passion, but even I would "back" a GOOD 4K Dumb TV that came in sizes larger than 50" at a reasonable price. I'll even pre-order the GoTY or whatever if it has 5 or more HDMI ports, and I'll keep my mouth shut about crowd funding for at least 12 months if it's user serviceable to some extent.
I want a nice screen of decent size and performance that I can turn on and off, that's it.
I don't want to pay extra for crappy software that erodes my privacy, provides horribly performing media applications that rot and eventually stop working but there's almost no option whatsoever on the market, even at (or especially at) the high end range.
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