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Many moons ago I used to work inside a samsung fab. At no point was I ever feeling a sense of outrage regarding having a literal 80s-style pager strapped to my body 24/7/365.

A big part of why this didnt bother me was the scale/impact of what I was doing - I was responsible for the primary business interface used across the entire factory floor.

Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a deep way. I felt a sense of compassion for this incredibly complex and valuable thing that humanity is just barely able to scrape together. Nothing you see in media can prepare you for the real thing.

Definitely not a job for everyone, but its really easy for me to see how a lot of us were able to otherwise deal with the stress.



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Yeah, but it's not only "the mission", it's your relationships with managers/colleagues, the environment, the perks, etc

That being said, being on call is not for everybody, and a well managed planning goes a long way. It's one thing to be called for a true emergency, another because a colleague doesn't know how to turn on a monitor or because someone did something stupid on a weekend (extreme example)


Sounds like you did eventually leave it. You communicated to me why you wanted to work there very well. What led you to leave?

I wanted to get deeper into software development and better understand how to design new complex systems.

Working in the US for a Korean megacorp, who rightfully demanded heavy standardization of manufacturing processes, meant I had basically zero latitude on this sort of stuff. I did manage to get approval for 1 minor development project which was ported back to Korea.

I still consider going back to SAS. I departed on amicable terms. The amount of impact I could bring with my skills today would probably open some additional doors. Working with stuff like Blazor in 2022 sometimes has me thinking about ways I could revamp that factory UX and solve problems that were impossible to solve before.


It does sound like an outlier in terms of demand, but to back up your point, there are many industries in which there is critical infrastructure and activities going on potentially 24x7 most of not all weeks.

I support financial applications that could be considered critical infrastructure for the country. To the point where the government has set up special regulatory procedures to ensure it’s managed properly. We make sure everyone we hire in the support roles understands that this job isn’t for everyone, there’s work that needs to be done at possibly any hour of any day, and while we have offshore teams there can still be gaps due to sickness, power cuts, etc. we have in depth on call rotas. We pay overtime and on call supplements.

Even outside IT, there are power stations and telecoms systems, water mains, TV and radio stations, who knows what else that operate round the clock, round the year. There are a lot of people in every nation that work these kinds of jobs.

A standard expectation of 11 or 12 hour days is extreme though. No company should plan their operations around that as a standard practice. I’ve worked a 70+ hour week before when there’s been a proper crisis going on though. I got paid for every hour, and I know my work is appreciated so there should be a nice bonus on the way in a few months.


Mines operate 24/7 with 12 hour shifts. Many build and run their own infrastructure, including power plants.

Mines, famously tolerable workplaces that are a reasonable model for the rest of the economy

The more common solution in these industries is 3 x 12 hour days per week, not 70 hour weeks. Does it state which model TSMC is using

According to the article in Taiwan 5x12 and even 6x12 or worse is considered expected.

yeah, that is definitely rough for American standards and probably not sustainable. After going back to the article, the confusing part is that the hours are so inconsistent. I wonder if they are running 3x 8 hour shifts and people need to stay longer to cover vacancies or close out problems that occurred on their shift.

They may also be running into the issue that physicians and residents do: hand-off errors. I have seen arguments that it's better to have an exhausted physician who has been monitoring you for 12+ hours than a fresh one who just started their shift. There's a lot of state of the current situation that can't be easily transmitted from one shift to the next.

I'd say 12 hour shifts are OK as long as the work time per week does not exceed 40 hours too much. That is, 12 hours 3 days a week, maybe 4 days on some weeks, could be very reasonable.

> Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a deep way. Nothing you see in media can prepare you for the real thing.

While working for Samsung Austin Semiconductor in 2013, I needed to travel to Korea for a month as part of our work on a global supply chain software project. IIRC, we were working at the semiconductor complex at Giehung. The fabs there are unbelievably enormous, much bigger than American fabs. Twelve stories tall, ~200x700 meters. A half dozen of these behemoths parked next to each other.

I felt like I was walking through an industrial city in Star Wars.

Edit to add: I believe you can probably contact the public relations department at Samsung Austin Semiconductor and schedule a tour for your group.


> I believe you can probably contact the public relations department at Samsung Austin Semiconductor and schedule a tour for your group.

IIRC they do regular tours for schools and other STEM groups. Last I badged out, there was an entire museum room dedicated to the history/tech/etc.


Yep, I went to their location in High School for a field trip!

This all reminds me of the short story "They're Made out of Meat"

https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think...


I've read (and watched) that story at least a dozen times, and your comment still seemed like a non sequitur.

Then I got it. Brilliant.


Someone needs to explain it to me because I'm still lost...

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."

>Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a deep way. I felt a sense of compassion for this incredibly complex and valuable thing that humanity is just barely able to scrape together. Nothing you see in media can prepare you for the real thing.

I interned at Micron as an industrial engineer looking at capacity and equipment purchases. I can very much relate to that. The whole summer was my mind being blown by the orders of magnitude across the board and it's somehow it's an economically viable process.

First, we take this giant silicon crystal taller than humans and cut it into wafers. Then we take these pure materials (like 99.99999% pure) and transfer a tiny big on to the wafers in a successive layering process. Oh no, the deposition process wasn't perfectly even across the whole wafer (because of annoying laws of physics), so we'll throw it into the chemical mechanical planarizarion process to skim off a tiny layer keep the internal mechanical stressed down. Add in other mechanical, etching, lithography, and measurement processes and it gets crazy.

Wafers go through hundreds of manufacturing steps depending entirely on purpose, and with each step there's a possibility of messing up part or all of the wafer.

99% yield on a per-machine basis is sub-par in most manufacturing environments, but achieving that would be devastating in semiconductors. For sake of demonstration:

0.99^100{manufacturing steps} = 36.6% total process yield.

0.995^200 = 36.6% total process yield.

0.9975^400 = 36.7% total process yield.

Each additional 9 on yield is really expensive to add.

In school we talked about 1/1000th of an inch being kinda tight to hold on a CNC mill, with 1/10,000th needing a lot more specialized processing and time. Suddenly I was hearing about nanometer thick layers with tolerances measured in angstroms.

And the capital expenditure was nuts! 6-figures hardly gets you anything in a fab, it's really in the 7-8 figure range where you see most of your equipment landing. That will be old but still viable equipment in a few years.

Somehow depreciating all that equipment designed to make chips sold at pennies to dollars each is profitable.

As far as I'm concerned, it's black magic and truly an incredible achievement for humanity.


> Each additional 9 on yield is really expensive to add.

That’s a really good point. It’s crazy to think that as we get smaller processes that not adding additional 9’s gets you relegated out of the leading edge, and possibly out of relevancy.

Black magic indeed!


> As far as I'm concerned, it's black magic and truly an incredible achievement for humanity.

Fabs seem to be the far edge of tools-to-make-the-tools dependency stack, with some of the necessary sorcerous gadgets (like EUV lithography) themselves only having a single supplier with the necessary secret incantations on the other side of the planet.

Does the knowledge even exist to bootstrap things back up again should the present infrastructure and supply chains be sufficiently disrupted?

I've long admired David J. Gingery's 'Build Your Own Metal Working Shop from Scrap' and wondered whether anything like it is even possible for integrated circuits.


>Does the knowledge even exist to bootstrap things back up again should the present infrastructure and supply chains be sufficiently disrupted?

Man, I'd love to know. Hypothetical scenarios are:

1) Everything is available at your fingertips supply chain wise, but you have no equipment. How long until we're at our current technical capability?

2) No equipment and the supply chain need to be rebuilt, but the designs are still present.

3) We have sticks and stones and whatever is in our brains. Start fresh like a game of Factorio and see how well you can do on a speed run.


> 3) We have sticks and stones and whatever is in our brains. Start fresh like a game of Factorio and see how well you can do on a speed run.

I don't recall exactly where (some large ouvre like The Culture, or The Polity), but some SF novel referred in passing to this becoming an extreme sport: Your team is dropped with no supplies on an uninhabited planet, and you try to bootstrap back to an interstellar capability.

IIRC, the aside mentioned that the current record was ~70 years, by a team genetically engineered for ultra-efficient digestion and no need for sleep.


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