It's interesting that he says location is the cause. I think I agree, but then I think about DC, where most of the tech jobs (aside from some government ones) seem to be located outside of the city
wait what? DC has one of the worst public transit systems of a major city in the world. portions of it are constantly shut down for maintenance. there was a week this summer with 2-3 fires in the system.
I think the fact that DC has a system puts it ahead of most places.
When people talk about DC they should really be talking about NoVa. And size-wise, NoVa is a sprawling southern city. The fact that the Metro covers most of it is much better than SD, or a closer city like Richmond.
I'm sorry, but the Metro does not cover "most" of NoVA. It has a few lines that jut into it, to provide commuting into DC, and that's it.
It is absolutely useless if you are working someplace in NoVA, and also live in NoVA. It will not help you get around in NoVA at all.
Whether it's better than American cities is irrelevant. The original claim, in a discussion about tech workers and tech jobs, was that the DC area had a good public transit system unlike SD. That is objectively untrue, for tech workers, for the reasons I stated above. The DC metro area is no better for tech workers as far as public transit goes. If you get a tech job in NoVA (or MD), you will absolutely need a car.
If you want to ride the Metro to work, you need to go back to school and get a degree in law or international relations so you can get one of those downtown DC jobs.
> DC has one of the worst public transit systems of a major city in the world. "strong" it is not.
But DC does have a real public transit system. Even if the train catches fire 2-3 times a day, you at least have a train that runs. That alone puts DC above 90+% of American cities.
There's the Metro, which occasionally kills people due to terrible maintenance, but it's only really useful for DC proper. There's not many tech jobs in DC, they're all outside in northern VA or southern MD, quite some distance from downtown DC. And those places are not well-served by Metro at all; basically there's some giant park-and-ride centers where commuters can drive in, park ($$$) and ride ($$$) the subway to their job in downtown DC. This isn't useful at all to people who actually work out in the suburbs in places like Reston VA (near the airport) or Manassas VA or Laurel MD, which are popular places for tech companies.
From what I've seen on my visits to San Diego, I'd say the situations are pretty comparable actually. Terrible, terrible traffic, and terrible public transit outside the city center, and all the tech companies are nowhere near the metro center.
On top of all that, the other problem in the DC area is that almost all the tech jobs are defense-related, so if you're not interested in that industry (or in working on projects that drag on and on for years and basically never get anywhere, and definitely aren't anywhere near the cutting edge of technology), DC is not the place for you.
Seeing firsthand what adjacency to a large military base does, I wouldn't want to be young tech talent near Coronado or Camp Pendleton, either.
Defense jobs are terrible, soul-crushing nightmares that nevertheless pay you enough that it isn't really worth running back through the tech hiring gauntlet, which somehow manages to be worse. My soul is already nearly squashed flat, but it's not too late for you to save yourselves, if you can learn from my mistakes. Leave the defense jobs for the folks who have aged out of the military.
> Defense jobs are terrible, soul-crushing nightmares
> My soul is already nearly squashed flat
Can you elaborate? What, exactly, was soul-crushing?
I worked for a small defense contractor from January 2015 to March 2016, and it didn't feel soul-crushing to me. In fact, I liked the fact that we were mostly forbidden from working overtime. Mind you, I don't miss the timekeeping policies one iota (including how we handled snow days), but it was tolerable...
It has its ups and downs. The general lack of overtime is nice, and from what I've seen of it the work pace is pretty lax and it's not hard to keep your job.
The problem with it is that it seems to be a big make-work jobs program for engineers. Defense projects these days just seem to drag on forever and rarely bear any fruit. It's not like working in the commercial sector where your work has a decent chance of actually going into mass production and being used by lots of people a year or two after you build it. Of course, there's places in the commercial world like this too (mainly at really giant corporations), but it's less likely. Also, a lot of defense contracting jobs seem to be "butts in seats" jobs; you're just paid to occupy a seat and be available to do some ill-defined work, with no clear management.
To be fair, my company was a little unconventional. We made NLP systems for defense clients, and as such we were working on interesting problems and had some real scientists on our payroll. I actually felt kinda out of place because I came from a systems and platform background and wound up being immersed in academic CS stuff and computational linguistics, while also being surrounded by experts on the subject with lots of experience, when I've never been good at the academic side. As much as I liked working at that company, I'm glad I'm now doing NMS engineering at a telecom instead, because what I'm doing now actually matches my skillset.
Personally, though, I've never cared that much about working on something that's fulfilling in and of itself. As long as I'm getting paid enough to fund my life, the hours are good, the work environment isn't abusive (I learned that lesson from a startup), and I'm doing something I'm actually competent at, I'm content. If I want to work on something that tickles my fancy, that's what personal projects are for.
Grishnakh got it done in one. I agree with every last sentence, down to the punctuation. No, wait. Make that down to the kerning.
I'll also add that some places are not just warming chairs with asses, but intentionally gaming the numbers and incurring mountains of technical debt in an apparent effort to suck more money out of the government customer than they were originally willing to pay, which is usually an insane amount to begin with.
It's hard to see the line between make-work scheme and outright fraud, but think I was probably on the wrong side of it for roughly two years. I didn't care much for the territorial pissing and office-level politics there, either.
The only reason I stayed at that place so long was because I was so sick of job-hunting and interviewing that I couldn't bring myself to do it more than once or twice a week. In the end, I settled for an opening at the same company that had laid me off with three days notice and no severance two years before, which was what forced me to go to the crap job in the first place.
> It's not like working in the commercial sector where your work has a decent chance of actually going into mass production and being used by lots of people
OTOH, a high percentage of startups end up dead, their code abandoned
I don't consider startups typical of the commercial sector. While I'm sure a bunch of people on this site love them and work at them, in terms of the overall employment of tech workers, they're a tiny minority.
The transit is terrible in the parts of the DC area that have most of the tech jobs. The metro adjacent parts of Tysons have passable transit since the new metro line opened a couple of years ago, but all of the other parts like Reston, Herndon, Sterling, Ashburn have practically non-existent transit.
Job mobility is also a big factor. I talked with someone who moved from the Bay Area to San Diego; people in San Diego tend to stay with their jobs for a long time. Whereas here it's not unusual to have people switching after 1-2 years.
Is that a factor or a symptom? I left in 2008 but through then it was common for people to stay in part because there weren't better options, especially since many people only have a narrow range where a new job won't make their commute substantially worse.
Add to the stack that the startup ecosystem sucks.
1) Raising an angel round - and certainly a Series A - in San Diego means getting on a plane to the Bay Area or a 2.5 hour drive to LA.
2) Potential acquirers are all up north which means not only do you have to figure out how to sell your tech people on SD while you're building, you have to then sell them on relocating when you get a term sheet.
We're starting a company in San Diego and can attest to this. Of our seed round, only ~10% came from San Diego investors. The rest are from the Bay Area / Northeast. This is the single biggest problem that needs to be solved if SD wants to have a viable startup ecosystem going forward.
He's talking about millenials who work in tech and he assumes it because the vast majority are straight men, which is why there is the "lack of women there" to begin with.
If you are a man (dating wise) it's better to be in NYC (Honestly don't know anything about San Diego). If you are a woman it's better to be in SV or SF.
^^^ exactly! People just don't understand how bad the traffic and transportation systems around here can be, especially the northbound evening commute hours.
My choice would have been IBM though, being as far as I can recall the most distant major tech campus from San Francisco. It's 90 minutes by car or 3 hours by train.
I work in SF near the Transamerica Pyramid. Sometimes I go to meetups at or near Samsung in Mountain View. I have to leave at 5 to get there by 6:45 if I'm lucky. And, that's after finding lower-traffic routes. Otherwise, half of the trip is just getting through the city.
Most of them are near a 2 hour drive, if you are anywhere around commute hours and you live in a typical (not right off the freeway) area in SF. To name a couple, Intel and Cisco.
Slightly off topic, maybe. I live in San Diego. Anyone here from the area know of any local resources a novice developer can use? I searched through ycombinator and the one book everyone refers to is the Big Nerd Ranch one. Currently going through that.
I see that the article mentions Origin Code Academy. However, I already work full time and can't use the day time to take classes at an academy.
I have a few ideas for apps that I can personally use for my own benefit and intend on publishing the apps to see maybe others can pick it up.
Books and MOOCs are best when supplemented by studying alongside peers. I've been leading discussion groups for years as we either go through books or take courses. (An archive of some of them at http://wiki.apache.org/lucy/LucyBookClub ).
I'm in San Diego, but most of the time I've recruited study partners from either $dayjob or the open source communities I'm active in rather than met people locally. Coursera Meetups haven't worked out so well for me. I wish I had somebody to study DSP and audio programming with. :)
I mean, you could live downtown and drive 25 minutes to Sorrento valley. Most commuters are going the opposite way. You could even go surfing in the morning before work, if you live just a bit north of Downtown.
Sorrento valley is a lonely place though, I do admit this.
As counter-intuitive as this sounds, it's actually the complete opposite. Living downtown and commuting to Sorrento Valley is a pain. My boss does it and he does 6 AM - 8PM to avoid traffic. Meanwhile, my wife goes from Del Mar to Old Town and only starts seeing traffic close to Del Mar on her way back.
I've definitely observed this here in SD. When I used to go to meetups as an aspiring developer we'd get lots of recruiters looking for "rockstars" or senior developers, and none (?) just looking for talent they could cultivate. I understand this is a by product of people staying at jobs for 1-3 years these days, but come on, where are future rockstars and senior devs going to come from if someone doesn't give them a shot?
Can you blame them for not wanting to take the gamble? I was once given a new hire who had a degree in a different field and later went to one of those hacker schools. He was smart, friendly, and a good worker -- but just not cut out for a job writing software. Not only was he unproductive, but he dragged down the rest of the team who had to fix his code and spend extra time going over his code reviews.
Can you go into more detail regarding why he wasn't cut out? Did he just not have enough experience at the time to work on software?
It's always interesting to me what makes a 'bad' hire, a 'bad' hire because I'm starting to realize it is very subjective. My motivation level and productivity varies significantly depending on work conditions, and how well I am getting along with colleagues.
He could write code just fine (he passed the interview) but he couldn't seem to grasp engineering. He couldn't look at a mock or a system diagram and figure out how to translate that into code. Given multiple approaches a problem, he wasn't ever able to formulate the advantages and disadvantages to each (and would inevitably pick some crazy, obfuscated approach).
Maybe it was just lack of experience, and he'll eventually come into his own -- but he definitely wasted an unacceptable amount of resources for a small company.
By "we" do you mean San Diego specifically, or by "we" do you mean the entire industry as a whole being frustrated in a lack of applicants for their CRUD application that can't have applicants that can traverse a BST on a whiteboard or pseudocode malloc/free?
I don't buy it. The northern part of San Diego is pretty comparable to, say, Mountain View.
The real problem is lack of compelling opportunities. Your options are basically Qualcomm or Inuit -- neither of which have particular draw for young engineers.
I'm finishing a PhD at UC San Diego, and I've noticed a few things. First, there is a different dynamic for biotech talent. The biotech scene in SD is strong, and people seem drawn to that. Second, in contrast to LA at least, commuting in SD is not terribly difficult. And there is a light rail (trolley) beginning construction up to the UCSD campus from downtown. Third, this city is a draw for people (like me) who are looking for something less bustling than SF or LA, and I think it's important to try to keep young talent here by selling this idea. In biotech, we desperately need better software engineers.
I used to commute on the trolley from La Mesa to Downtown and it was great. But if you don't live on one of the trolley lines, SD public transit is dreadful!
I spent years between a few healthcare startups, and I feel like there is a strong scene not only for Biotech but also in Communications and Defense. Speaking somewhat from experience: I feel like the problem is that the companies in those spaces are giant, lumbering, unappealing employers for young people. It's really hard to pitch an energetic new grad on writing Java for SAIC or Qualcomm.
Biotech stands to be an exception, but despite a strong presence by a medium-large number of companies, there just didn't seem to be enough jobs.
Who cares? Where are the articles about San Antonio losing its "young oil and gas talent" to Houston? How about Philly losing its "young finance talent" to New York?
Also, I'm pretty sure biotech counts as "tech." Hey, it even has it in the name. Too bad they don't have more on demand laundry startups, since apparently that's the key to success as a city.
I grew up in San Diego before spending 20 years in the Bay Area. While I totally understand why a fresh graduate would want to head north to the bay, I think as a place to CREATE a startup, San Diego has tremendous potential.
The weather is beautiful and actually beats SF. It's close to 70 year round, nice and dry, with great beaches and mountain and desert hiking. As the article notes downtown has been evolving in a really promising direction, to say nothing of classic beach spots like Del Mar, La Jolla, Pacific Beach, etc. For getaways there is LA, Mexico, skiing at Big Bear.
The computer science program at UCSD is typically ranked about 15th globally, CalTech is not terribly far north, nor is UCLA and UC Irvine and UCSB and UC Riverside, and SDSU, though it has a reputation as a party school, is no slouch.
Meanwhile the housing is still affordable compared to the Bay Area, if not cheap on a national basis. And the Valley is an hourlong Southwest flight away.
More important there is a real diversity of industry still in San Diego, with lots of biotech, defense (contracting and the actual Navy), aerospace, and health.
Thirty years ago, the Bay Area/Valley had a very San Diego feel to it. Easy to forget now, but it was a pretty laid back place where an ordinary person could buy a nice spread in the suburbs and where starting a business in your garage was a reasonable thing to attempt in a borderline casual way. You get the impression people smoked a lot of pot and spent a lot of time relaxing, whether in hot tubs or on hiking trails or wherever. It was a California lifestyle. The Bay Area feels like New York now, except with tech and better weather — just very intense. San Diego still feels like California.
I'm not saying it'll ever match the Bay Area/Valley as a tech hub; the lead in Northern California is too great. But San Diego should be at or near the top of the list of secondary hubs, in my biased opinion.
> Meanwhile the housing is still affordable compared to the Bay Area, if not cheap on a national basis. And the Valley is an hourlong Southwest flight away.
I see lots of >$1 million homes and >$1500/month rents for apartments, in the suburbs. Do you have any specific areas in mind? I'm thinking about moving.
In north county, places like Rancho Penasquitos (92129) have great schools and you can find decent single-family homes in the low $600's these days. It's about 15 minutes from the coast without traffic -- 25 mins from downtown. Nearby areas like Mira Mesa and Clairemont are cheaper but the public schools aren't as good.
I don't think you have to worry... there is a NET outflow of people living in California[1]. Why? My mother always said if you don't have anything nice to say about a group of people, don't say anything at all.
The comparison is 2million in Palo Alto for an attached townhouse ~2200sqft. You might be able to get an 800k house in a bad neighborhood (east palo alto) that's 1100 sqft.
Friend in Buffalo is buying a house for 120k, difference is extreme.
> Friend in Buffalo is buying a house for 120k, difference is extreme.
Buffalo is an extreme example, both nationally and inside Buffalo itself. The most expensive single family homes in the city are ~$1.5MM [0]. These are mansions built in the early 1900s right on a beautiful park. Alternatively, you can buy an almost condemned house in a bad neighborhood for ~$5,000 [1]. People actually live in those places.
If you live in rural Kentucky, housing in many parts of Florida would be considered absurd. Comparing costs of living in wages against locations is apples and oranges. You can get a home with 2000sgft in Montana with 50 acres for the same price as a cookie cutter home in a subdivision in North Carolina. Housing is based on numerous economic factors including wage and comps (what other people have been willing to spend on similar homes in the area)
The difference between the housing market in the Bay and almost anywhere else is an extreme caricature of your analogy, though. At some point all analogies fail to provide an adequate description, but yours fails almost out of the gate here, in my opinion.
$600,000 for a house in California sounds pretty cheap to me too. That's the price of an apartment in Toronto and even senior software developers here are lucky to clear US$80,000 a year.
I like it the way it is and would hate to see it turn into another Bay Area.
On a more serious note I still have no idea why people haven't figured this out and all flooded the place... You could have some killer startups here..
Escondido is another reasonably priced suburb. My wife and I bought a nice house there in the mid $500s. The only downside of Escondido is that the school system is not great and it's a good 40 minutes from downtown SD.
Wife and I bought a fixer-upper in old Escondido for a bit under 300. There's several tech companies in North County, and you can take Del Dios to the coast pretty easily (which is where I work).
Can confirm: currently live in Rancho Penasquitos and it's great if not a little suburban.
That said, if I were a little older and had a family it would be perfect.
Depends on which part. North-east PQ (over by Rolling Hills) homes were built in the early 70s and are still going in the low 600's. I believe west PQ (Black Mountain Rd area) homes are newer and more expensive.
I'm interesting in restarting the old SD Hacker News Group. I have access to the old email list and there is an existing google group. How about combining efforts?
Yeah, unless you wanna live in a box under a bridge (but even that's becoming more challenging), you'll find those prices you quote to be very accurate. And at $1500 you're not living in a nice area. That's about the cheapest we could find for a two bedroom in Clairemont with lead paint on the walls and asbestos in the ceiling. And buying is no better. $500K here will get you a square box in a "gentrifying" section of town and it'll need a lot of work.
Tldr: housing is NOT cheap on a national basis...only by comparison to NYC and the Bay Area. An easy Google search shows how unaffordable it is here.
So it's great here if you've got, or can make, a lot of money. But for everyone else, it's tough.
I lived in North Park for $1700/month in 1100 sq ft. Plenty of stuff within walking distance as well as only being a few miles from Downtown. Living right next to Balboa Park was great as well. Compared to LA (and the better paying / more diverse opportunities you can find there), I'd have to classify it as expensive.
As an engineer who also grew up in San Diego and now works here full-time, I totally agree. I think there is tremendous potential for innovation in San Diego, the hardest part is finding investors. As you said, there are many great universities nearby, with plenty of young talent who might be disenfranchised with the high cost of living/lifestyle of SV(or maybe that's just me,the disenfranchised part, not the talent).
As a robotics/mechanical guy, it can be a little overwhelming to consider a startup, because prototyping hardware gadgets is pricey! But I have been looking at something like SBIR/STTR funding, because most of my widgets are navy/defense focused.
I would say some potential founders could use the same funding to build software, especially considering you don't have to give up any commercialization rights or ownership stake to get the funding.
SBIR is a neat program. I tried applying once but didn't get the grant. I've heard tell that they tend to favor PIs with advanced degrees. Sadly, I only have a bachelor's.
> The computer science program at UCSD is typically ranked about 15th globally, CalTech is not terribly far north, nor is UCLA and UC Irvine and UCSB and UC Riverside, and SDSU, though it has a reputation as a party school, is no slouch.
As someone who lived in NYC for 17 years and moved to SF 6 months ago, my anecdotal experience so far is that SF is nowhere near as intense as NYC, at least as far as workplace environment goes. Everything feels considerably more laid back to me.
Curious about the individuals' drive to succeed, make money, be known, and to "make it".
The west coasts trains you to be discreet about your ambitions, hard work, struggles, etc.[1] It's the cool thing to do. So you might have to look for subtle signs.
[1] grew up in SV, went to east coast Wall Street feeder school.
Venture capitalist Mark Suster makes an interesting case for why Los Angeles would have the greatest chance at being #2 behind Silicon Valley.
This comment is not meant to dampen anyone's thunder in playing up San Diego. Instead, the intention is for others to listen to how Mark sells Los Angeles. Take notes on how he describes the successes of LA that can lead to greater things.
Plagiarize his persuasive narrative style as a template for selling San Diego's business potential. (E.g. mentally do search&replace of LA companies to SD companies). That way, people hear more than just SD's great weather and more affordable housing.
The entire 2hr20min interview has amazing insights across a wide range of topics but here are some deep links specifically about the LA scene:
- How University of California's commercialization philosophy (2% royalties) is different from Stanford University (equity)
(fyi the "Anderson" he's referring to is UCLA's Anderson School of Management)
1:43:50 - 1:47:26 --
deep link: https://youtu.be/u0s-vqF-2K0?t=1h43m50s
IMO, Capital and Talents are the two major factors in determining whether or not a location has a potential to have a good and sustainable tech scene. You'd have to have good supply and demand for both to sustain a healthy tech scene, and the driving factor between the two is capital, not talents. The exodus of talents in SD is a symptom of weak local demand (not because of, say, not enough restaurant options); which in itself is a symptom of weak supply of capital. Any place's scale of tech scene reaches to a local equilibrium when the supply and demand for both factors levels up. Following that logic, San Diego seems to be going where that local equilibrium is, given the current scale of capital available in the region. But the fact that more VCs are looking at places outside of the bay may bring some hope to SD, depending on whether or not SD will be "the chosen city".
I'm going to be the naysayer here and say that a year and a half back when I was looking for jobs I considered all options up and down the California coast. My conclusion from my search was that I will not be moving to San Diego. The salaries are far below Orange County, which are below Los Angeles, which are less than Bay Area salaries. Now, money isn't everything, but I'd say tech culture (in terms of technology, meetups, like minded folks) are also ranked in the same order.
If someone wants to be a 'blub' programmer than SD is probably no worse than any other place, but someone looking to grow their career and have fun doing it, I'd recommend LA, OC, South Bay, and SF above SD whole heartedly.
That was not what I meant at all. I mean if you aren't particular about the technology stack you are working with and/or hoping for a high salary, then odds are more in your favor in SD, vs. being picky.
I'm not a web programmer at all, not sure why I come off that way. Also, since we're on HN, I assume most readers are familiar with PG's term 'Blub programmer', which more ore less means 'java' these days. shrug
I work in San Diego. I work for SPAWAR on missile defense technology for the navy, a massive presence in San Diego along with the marines. Uncle Sam has a pretty big budget for defense and lot of cool technology to play with. I get to work on things from device drivers to websites the whole gambit. Silicon Valley ain't the only place to learn, that's kinda the whole point of this whole internet thing.
As a San Diego native who relocated to the Bay about five years ago: the income difference scales up faster than the rent difference. I've put away a lot of savings on that margin.
Now if your intent is to own a home, well, that's another story altogether. I'm generally priced out of even the cheapest areas.
>If someone wants to be a 'blub' programmer than SD is probably no worse than any other place
Weird, I always considered web devs who do little more than paste together abstractions written by other people to solve easy problems and then go talk about how awesome they are for doing it at meetups 'blub' programmers.
I grew up in San Diego, have been working on tech in SF for almost a decade, and love the idea of moving back.
The quality of life in (western) San Diego is so hard to beat. A couple dozen (or hundred) of us moving back with some meaningful experience and success could go a long way towards making San Diego a viable place to more easily build and sustain real companies.
Have you been back recently? I visited SD last month after being gone for 4 years... It was not the same to me. Very dry and dirty. Maybe living in Colorado has made me spoiled but it just seems different.
Yeah I was there last month, and had fresh sashimi and fish tacos sitting on the the deck at Point Loma Seafoods, where it was still 70 degrees and glorious at 6pm. And then I flew home to a cold, gray SF ;)
This. I'm from Montana, and while I love the weather here in SD, the glamour has worn off. The cost of living is astronomical, pay insufficient to compensate, and there are surprisingly few opportunities for what I do (Data Science). Oh, and while I love the beach (toxic water and all), I think a lot of SD is just... UGLY. Brown, dirty, desert. Of course part of this is all the hard scaping taking place. Everyone ripping up green and replacing with rocks and dirt isn't going to help things look pretty.
All in all, my wife and I are looking for an exit. Unless I can start making six figures in the next six months I don't think we'll make it another year here. We've felt squeezed since we arrived and it's not getting any better.
I grew up in SD too.. employment opportunities in general outside defense and tourism is not great. Neither is the pay. As the old joke goes, they pay you in sunshine.
Lower cost of living and lower median income make it a total wash, with the more interesting jobs requiring Uncle Sam's security clearance. My dream scenario is getting my LA based company to switch manufacturer to TJ and set up the R&D office in San Diego, but I'm already thinking, 'what if I can't find good people in SD'.
"The weather is beautiful and actually beats SF" --respectfully, what the hell do you mean "actually"?? Weather-wise San Diego is quite literally paradise. There is no competition, SF stinks.
There's no fog, sun every single day. Everyday can be beach day (and unlike here when you go to the beach you don't get bundled up like a J Crew catalog and bring blankets-- not towels-- and shiver like isosceles on some muggy wet sandy beach.)
We need to get going on the revolution and get out of these lame, expensive $2200+ apartment complexes and get after San Diego. Bad part about San Diego, besides dearth of opportunity right this minute (but it's changing apparently), is that it's pretty dull. There are little pockets of civilization but it's almost like San Jose in some parts.
San Diego's big problem it seems like is that you need to be at Qualcomm or some biotech or government contracting company to exist there. Or if you have some special gem that happens to be in San Diego, then that works too. But short of that there's not a lot of opportunity unless you really know where to look. Young talent needs to get out of there if they want to grow a bit in whatever they're doing.
San Diego is a truly amazing place. What's awesome is you can also get down to Mexico for dinner and come back same night. Great city but needs help.
Approaching my graduation from UCSD's CS program back in '08, I couldn't wait to move from SD to SF. Several reasons but the main ones were: 1) hard to find driven people that wanted to make an impact in their field 2) tech scene was heavily dominated by biotech and Qualcomm 3) missing intellectually curious people.
I hope it turns around soon however, since it's a beautiful place to live.
UCSD '99 CS grad here. I opted to stay in SD for my career. There has been a huge shift in the last five years -- plenty of startup activity downtown (http://sandiegostartupweek.com/), some of the meetups are quite active (the main js meetup regularly pulls in over 100 people).
Still, it's probably not quite as active as a secondary hub like Austin, but at this rate it probably will be within the next five years.
I lived in San Diego for the last two years and this article doesn't make much sense to me. They say the problem is that Sorento valley is to far from San Diego downtown but downtown is dull and there are plenty of good places to live not far away from Sorento valley (Del Mar, La Jolla, Pacific Beach). I commuted from North Park to the UCSD campus which is close to Sorrento valley and it was no problem at all.
That's funny, I remember getting from North Park to Sorrento Valley being sheer, utter hell on earth, most of it spent crawling up 805 at a snail's pace.
Also, downtown (well, the gaslamp at least) is kinda meh but North Park, South Park, and Golden Hill are probably the best neighborhoods in the city, and about 2 miles from DT.
DT does have one advantage though in that you can take the Coaster to Sorrento Valley.
Not to mention that equipped with a bike and the coaster [1], you could easily make it between Downtown (either Santa Fe or Old Town), and Sorrento Valley in 40 minutes. Granted, there isn't a super safe way to get to / from the Old Town station.
I was in San Diego last year. Speaking to recent graduates as well as people looking to go to university, a great many, more than I expected, mentioned wanting to move to the SF bay area for either work or study, once I mentioned living in the SFBA --admonitions about the cost of living didn't seem to have much sway.
I think young locals see SD as an outpost of (US) civilization and have a desire to move to the actual center of jobs, education, technology and a little bit of culture.
The lunch options are actually pretty great (Mexican/Indian/Afghan/Thai/Chinese/French/Donut Touch/whatever you want) in Sorrento Valley, and it's located next to a beautiful canyon. The problem is that it's profoundly isolated from the rest of the city, and there's reasonable way to get there and back other than driving in heavy traffic. Basically, although it's in the City of San Diego, it's not remotely in anything resembling a city and it's not near anything remotely resembling a social life.
I lived in La Jolla near the beach— also beautiful, but also boring by design. Any youth and energy (other than drunks in lifted trucks) was a half-hour drive away, which also meant I couldn't drink.
I also didn't love my work at Qualcomm and couldn't find another job in a more-reasonable location.
I biked to work there, but that meant biking on the 5, which felt extremely unsustainable— the only other bike commuter I ran into was an older guy who had been rear-ended by a drunk on a similar route. There was no practical way to commute on transit— just an infrequent commuter train down an enormous mesa from the office.
By stressing lack of downtown locations, this seems be a fluff piece ala "Millenials don't want to drive!".
While there's a lot of competition for talent to leave to Bay Area, lots of folks I know moved here to SD to actually have a life outside of work, since its housing prices are much lower, access to beaches, food, etc. The commuting is better than SF imho, unless you simply cannot or refuse to drive.
I moved to San Diego to start a tech company with a partner about 18 months ago. SD was chosen because partner lived there and was established. We found it very difficult to get the attention of any VC's or potential customers. We did manage to get an interview with YC, but were declined.
Was this due to the location? Perhaps. I do know that the events we went to were lackluster, and the ecosystem was weak. You've got Evonexus (which wouldn't even talk to us), and Connect Springboard, who wanted less complex ideas. Meetups were ok but the ones we went to ended up with more hangers on ("hey I brought my class of 20 HS students to learn about startups at this meetup with 8 people!") than actual people doing stuff.
Also, to be honest I just really didn't like San Diego. My wife got hit by a car while riding to work on a scooter and was in a cast for a few months; the weather was too damn hot (and I lived only two miles from the beach); public transport is dreadful; the culture, while better than LA, is still very socal; drivers tried to kill me as I cycled everywhere; and the city is a model of horrific urban design. Even in places that COULD be great you've got organizations like the Hillcrest Business Association trying to kill a single. damn. bike lane on one of the most heavily-ridden (and dangeous) streets in San Diego - University Ave. The city spends years claiming it's doing something just to have SANDAG kill it. This is particularly egregious when you consider that Todd Gloria supports cycling - until it matters. A bike lane in the middle of nowhere doesn't take any political courage.
SD is vastly overrated. I will admit, though, that the beer and Mexican food are good. Within SD I _did_ quite like South Park. It was when I needed to leave South Park that things were bad.
Honestly it sounds like everyone who doesn't like San Diego would really like the bay area.
I tend to agree that salaries in SD don't match the cost of living - at least in tech. The southern California lifestyle isn't for everyone, but if you like the beach it's tough to beat in the continental US.
Bay area cost of living is tough too, even with the higher salary ranges. I had never even heard of a "micro-loft" until I came to SF.
In the end, I'm a big fan of both SD and the bay area. Both areas have huge benefits to offset their respective problems.
If you want to be happy in SD, you have to be content with driving everywhere. Cycling sucks in 99% of the city and mass transit is terrible. If you try to live in SD like you live in SF or NYC, you will not be happy.
I'm not sure about your complaint with SD being too hot. 2 miles from the beach should be great weather. I lived in San Diego for 20 of my 35 years of life (moved away in 2011) and the weather is one of the best things about that place. Some people prefer a cooler climate though.
It sounds like you would much rather live in SF. Cooler weather, better cycling, and better public transit. For me, I prefer SD. I hated the SF weather and the public transit still wasn't really that good (BART is too limited).
I would love to move back to SD but housing costs are just too damn high and I don't want to live in the cheap parts where its hotter and boring. I'm going to be looking at rural Oregon or Washington when I hopefully move back to the US in a couple years.
I understand the summer of 2015 was especially hot (El Niño and all that), and it might be that our neighborhood was especially warm. We lived in South Park, right by The Big Kitchen. For all my complaints about San Diego I actually really liked South Park. Kindred is a great metal vegan beer bar, and Brabant was fantastic before they closed.
I am pretty dedicated to living a car-free life, and on paper SD seemed like it MIGHT work. I used car2go when needed and cycled or rode a 170cc scooter for the first few months. After my wife got hit by someone who drove off it really soured me on the city, as did dripping in sweat any time I went anywhere on my bike.
However, I also acknowledge that these responses are largely emotional. People are killed by automobiles everywhere, and riding in the cold rain isn't much fun either.
Yes and no on driving - my BF and I share a car, use car2go, and walk around our neighborhood. We live in North Park. He is a video engineer for conventions and tradeshows, so he's more in the tourism industry than anything. It's actually a very lucrative career - up there with tech, if you play your cards right and have the right work ethic/talent then it can pay and provide well.
I'm in tech. I work in robotics and VR. Granted, the robotics company is in SF, but the VR company is down here. I do have to drive to work with my own car. But my BF can use car2go to get downtown when I've got the car.
We rent in NP and pay around $1000 (we got lucky) for a 1bd. We're anticipating needing a 2bd within the next two years (he's got two kids) and that should run us up to $2000 by the time we need it. That'll work though, our incomes can support that. If either of the startups I work at do well, then we'll be looking to buy in the next 5-6 years.
Housing is nowhere near as expensive here as it is in SF or NYC, though. Even better if you're DINK (dual income, no kids). We probably have to pay more for his kids from a previous marriage than we would if they were ours (child support any whatnot), but it's possible to afford housing here.
Lest anyone think I'm an immigrant to CA who just couldn't hack the culture shock, I'm a Californian who grew up there- I spent thirty years there and then moved to Ireland on a lark (and working holiday visa). I liked Ireland so much I stayed for about 2.5 years, then moved to San Diego to start a company, then after that failed moved back to Dublin. It's not perfect, but the weather's cooler and the cycling a hell of a lot better than SD.
Depends on where you live in SD as far as bike friendlyness. La Jolla, PB and mission Beach are very bikeable. I live in PB and hardly ever drive, but am fortunate that I can telecommute for a bay area company from my home office. If I had to drive to Qualcomm etc I'd have a different take on the ease of transportation.
San Diego is nice if you want a casual, laid-back lifestyle.
The problem is that "casual" and "laid-back" are the last words you want to use to describe how startups need to behave in order to get off the ground.
Places like SF and NY work very well for startups because, among other things, there's a sense of urgency and intensity. In San Diego however, the established business culture is pretty slow due to the dominant tech sectors (like biotech and hardware) having long-term R&D cycles.
Don't get me wrong, I have family in SD and I'd love to live there. Just not if I'm planning to found a startup.
I actually find that the laid back attitude helps weed out the people who aren't serious about what they're doing. It's possible to have a life, enjoy the sunshine, and work hard. But you're right on the long-term R&D cycles. I agree with that.
I grew up in the east bay, went to college on the central coast (Cal Poly), and have lived in San Diego County for the last 6 years--specifically Carlsbad, East Village, Little Italy, and Hillcrest. I'm an aeronautical engineer who specializes in numerical analysis, so I'm not the EXACT demographic mentioned in the article but I still think I can offer some insight.
I can validate a lot of what CalRobert has mentioned. On paper and even during a during a brief visit, San Diego looks like a great city for young tech talent--great weather, cheap Mexican food, delicious beer, affordable housing (at least by SF and NY standards), and (of course) the beaches! Who doesn't want endless summer?
But on further inspection, there are definitely some environmental, structural, and cultural issues:
- _Heat_: With climate change the summers have been getting unbearably hot. Since much of the city (Uptown area) was built between the 20s and 70s, most places (with the exception of new high rise apartments / condominiums) don't have central air. Each subsequent summer I've lived here has been warmer and longer--just look at satellite imagery of the area over time--the Baja sand dunes are moving north. Due to San Diego County's political leanings, climate change is still a "controversial political issue".
- _Transit_: Southern California (and San Diego in particular) has a complete and total aversion to public transit and alternative modes of transportation. The landscape and suburban landscape don't particularly lend themselves to public transit, but it's MORE than that--it's cultural. San Diego was largely developed during the "American Dream" boom [1]--a two car garage and car for every adult. The city was planned around cars and natives like it that way. It's not as much a lack of supply or appropriate legislation as much of a lack of demand. Cars are one of the ways San Degians demonstrate wealth and exercise their "freedom"--public transit is widely reserved for the poor. Even the Regional Bike Project [2] has been met with huge resistance because it will take parking away from University Ave., as mentioned above. The Uptown Community Plan [3], which is attempting to increase population density in the "young, hip, liberal" area is being met with lots of NIMBY-ism [4].
- _Population Flux_: San Diego seems like a revolving door of people. I constantly meet people who "just moved here". What attracts them? The beach and the weather. Who benefits most from those? Attractive people because they can exercise one of their major strengths. Don't get me wrong, people are allowed (and encouraged) to be beautiful and San Diego IS a beautiful city (except when you look at the 40+ age range who have been weathered by solar radiation). Since that's the demographic that's attracted to the area, more substantive attributes that are popular in areas like the bay area--intelligence, creativity, passion, drive, ambition for things other than image or material wealth, etc.--are in shorter supply. Granted, as money REALLY started to flow into the Bay Area in the 90s, much of the hackers, geeks, and political dissidents, were displaced by people looking to make money. But, hey, at least they were doing something rather than just trying to appear beautiful and wealthy. This would be a huge issue it didn't make people so depressed--our largest alternative press paper, the San Diego Reader, seems to be entire funded by teeth whitening, weight loss, and depression treatment advertisements. The population flux issues are compounded by the large military population in San Diego. Since many of them are on one to three year assignments--they don't really invest in the area, and it's hard to blame them. It's a really difficult lifestyle.
- _Wealth_: San Diego is _the worst city_ for long-term wealth building in the United States [5]. I read story after story on Hacker News about the housing problems in SF and NY, and the cost of living IS obnoxious, but so are the salaries. As a single data point, I currently make about 100K in a very specialized discipline with a masters degree and ~6 years of experience. If I moved to the Bay Area, Seattle, or Pasadena, it would be substantially higher. If I moved to Charleston, Wichita, or Huntsville (other aerospace hubs) my salary would decrease but the money would go MUCH further. What really matters is salary divided by cost of living or average real estate prices. According to the study "San Diego [is] a good fit for people with a substantial nest egg because they can purchase a home and build equity", which most people in this crowd looking to move (with the exception of new graduates) could probably afford. HOWEVER, the real estate market in San Diego is also incredibly competitive. I started looking in 2012, constantly fought against all cash developers, and FINALLY got an offer accepted in 2014 after offering 30K over asking price. Rent prices are also skyrocketing right now, which makes moving here as a new graduate increasingly difficult.
- _Politics_: San Diego skews conservative and is semi-corrupt. Our last mayor resigned due to a sex scandal [6] which led to a mayor election, the results of which CLEARLY shows the neighborhood class segregation throughout the county [7]. In the midst of all of this, the Balboa Park Centennial Committee (charged with planning a celebration for the Balboa Park Centennial) squandered 2.6 million in taxpayer funds with little to show for it [8]. More recently, we've had huge problems with the homeless population [9] and the city's response has been to close shelters [10][11] and BLAME the homeless for their "laziness" while completely ignoring material conditions and mental illness. Coronado Island (rich, independent city which includes a huge naval base) regularly rounds up homeless people and drops them off in East Village, a neighborhood I used to live in. There are many homeless encampments around the city, bike theft has increased, and the cops seem to mostly harass them. Our police chief also resigned in 2014 due to sexual harassment and fourth amendment violations [12]. It's safe to say that class and racial tensions are high.
That all sounds pretty bad, but there is a lot that makes San Diego a really great place to lives as well:
- _Beer_: If you're into beer, San Diego is a REALLY great place to be. There are new breweries popping up constantly, a great selection of beers on tap at nearly ever restaurant, and a decent bottle shop on nearly every corner.
- _Dogs_: San Diego is an INCREDIBLY dog friendly city. There are numerous dog parks, restaurants with outdoor patios that cater to dog owners, and even a Dog Beach.
- _Petco Park_: I grew up going to the Oakland Coliseum and (later, when it opened), what was then PacBell Park. For the price of tickets, it's hard to beet a game at Petco Park. The food selection, which features local restaurants, is excellent, beers are semi-affordable, and nearly all the seats are great. The Padres are historically terrible, but since most people seem to be transplants, they all just go to games when "their" team is in town.
- _Balboa Park_: Balboa Park, to me, is the crown jewel of the city and one of the major reasons I moved to Hillcrest--I'm just a few blocks north. It includes some great museums, the botanical building [13], and the Zoo which does some pretty altruistic work, is also a gigantic botanical garden, and has sky buckets you can ride on to get a view of the entire city.
- _Political Mixing_: I didn't realize how myopic the Bay Area was until I left. I still have family and close friends in the area who pride themselves in the political openness of the Bay Area. That only really seems to be true if you agree with the dominant views. Disagreements seem to center around pedantic details or characterizations of the "Political Right" or "Big Business" [14]. San Diego, on the other hand, is really more of a cultural salad [15]. A typically night out at a North Park or Downtown Bar will land you in the company of hipsters, yuppies, hippies, military cadets, punks, gays, Cholos, etc. Some of this depends on venue, but you never really know what you're going to get--it can be very diverse which encourages everyone to be polite and occasionally reconcile or challenge their own political views and preconceptions. A lot of the ska music coming out of Southern California which talked about conflict, tolerance, etc. didn't make sense to me until I moved down here.
- _Food_: San Diego has great Mexican, Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, and East African food. We're lacking quality Chinese, don't have nearly enough quality Indian, and really only have two or three good Italian places in Little Italy. Greek could also use some work, although there is an old dinner on University in North Park that's tasty and affordable.
- _Trails_: I'm a trail runner and we have a LOT of really well-maintained local trails in the city. If you want something more substantial, you can get to the PCT in about 45 minutes and run north (or south) to your heart's content.
- _Music_: Due to our proximity to LA, a lot of big acts come through San Diego on week nights and play smaller venues for almost nothing. I frequently attend shows at the Casbah for $13. Unfortunately, LA also seems to suck up any of our local talent since the industry is so much larger there.
- _Neighborhoods_: Coming from the Bay Area, there are lots of neighborhoods that, even with their Southern California cultural heritage, offer refuge and tend to share my cultural leanings. Some favorites include Hillcrest, Normal Heights, University Heights, Mission Hills, Golden Hill, North Park, and South Park. Unfortunately, to live in this area, I have to commute every day to Poway for work. Apparently Barrio Logan and Logan heights are also getting better, but I haven't spent any substantial time down there.
Sorry, that was a good bit longer than I anticipated. I'm happy to answer any questions about the area although questions related specifically to the start-up scene, securing VC funding, etc. should probably be directed elsewhere.
That was fantastically thorough. If I still lived in SD I'd ask if you wanted to meet up for a pint. We even share an alma mater (Cal Poly SLO).
I couldn't have put it better myself. And thanks for pointing out that climate change is an issue. I got really, really tired of people saying "gee, this sure is an unusually hot summer. Just like the last one, and the one before that, and the one before that" and yet thinking of climate change as unsettled science. Before weatherspark got rid of their dashboard I could show them that summers in SD ARE definitively hotter than they have been in ages (though there was a hot stretch in the late 70's).
I don't actually mind developers per se, I have more problem with existing business demanding the local taxpayers fund their parking. I also got tired of NIMBYs objecting to any new housing that didn't include ridiculously high amounts of parking.
The apartment I lived in was built in the 20's, and it was a 2 bed with no offstreet parking above a shop. It was fantastic! It made a lot of sense since my wife and I wanted to live car-free. Unfortunately it would be illegal to build now, and SD would have required two parking spots for it (at most we only ever owned one car).
There's actually a lot of new housing developments going on right now. Especially in uptown and downtown. I think there are 5 or more cranes in downtown right now. How many cranes are in SF right now? Probably zero. Unfortunately, in San Diego, you really need a car to get around.
I agree. I've been to many meetups myself and while there are some really smart people doing cool things there's also just not a lot going on overall. A lot of attendees are curious, or beginners, or whatever... Which is all good since that's where everyone starts, but it doesn't provide much in the way of opportunity.
I guess it really depends on which you value – being close to work or living somewhere cool. I am one of the few that actually reside in Sorrento Valley in the middle of Qualcomm land. People don't want to live here because the neighborhood isn't "cool" or "hip". However, I never have to put up with traffic, the Del Mar beach is about fifteen-twenty minutes away, and I can walk to Karl Strauss Brewery, Starbucks, and my co-working place. When I want a better "scene", downtown is just a twenty minute uber ride away. It actually works out pretty darn well if ya ask me, even if it's not a cool place like North Park or Little Italy.
I can see the appeal of places like SF and NYC for 20-somethings, but I'm in my mid-30s with 2 kids and in San Diego I can afford a nice single-family house in the suburbs with good public schools and (relatively) affordable daycare. When I hear about the crowding and cost of living in places like SF/Boston/NYC it makes me shudder. I love it here, but I work in La Jolla not Sorrento Valley (I'm in biotech, not IT). But I think for more-middle aged folks, the restaurant scene near work is less of a factor? I don't need excitement, I need affordable housing and schools -- and the weather and outdoor activities are worth A LOT to me.
Many MANY cities are struggling with this -- business parks outside of the city core and the only way between is commute via car.
Frankly this blows pretty hard and the only remediation is reliable public transit between the two, or more to the point, some form of light rail (with frequent all-day every-day service) or even heavy rapid transit. Sadly many municipalities find this unappetizing as the time-frame for such a project stretches past a decade and the cost into the billions, so such cities will inevitably be left to languish.
I can only hope that they start to see the writing on the wall sooner than later.
The complete and total lack of attention to bicycle infrastructure is an issue too, but that is a whole different can of worms.
The weird thing for me is how many companies resist working from home (permanently) as a solution. Screwed-up office and housing locations become a lot more palatable when you never have to make that commute.
I’m not sure how it became a thing to distrust employees so much that teams can’t even conceive of somebody that is never in the office. The silliest situation I encountered was one a few years ago where a manager couldn’t see how ridiculous it was that he disallowed working from home for employees in his own city even though half the people on his team were in another state and he could never keep tabs on them anyway.
I'm in San Diego and have visited SF many times on business and pleasure. I used to think I would want to live in the City and retire in the Bay area. Today, I'm not so sure. It's just too crazy. Driving from my friend's studio 3rd floor walk-up near AT&T Park to Mountain View convinced me that drive is crazy. I could get anywhere in San Diego in the time it took me to make that commute.
And the article didn't seem to mention this, but a lot of these SV companies are in office parks. Google, Apple, office parks with flair (and I use flair in the Office Space sense of the word). The future is falling from the sky like rain, but like rain, a lot of it is lost down the drain.
Also, Google is opening a pretty good-sized building in San Diego, just down the street from Green Flash.
Also, I'm on the Navy side of government tech transfer. I have to say, the government gives developers a pretty sweet deal on their IP rights.
Actually, y'all just go up to SF. Please. Enjoy it. I'll slum it down here. I'll visit you.
> Driving from my friend's studio 3rd floor walk-up near AT&T Park to Mountain View convinced me that drive is crazy.
That's analogous to visiting Carlsbad from your place in PB. I mean, except that Carlsbad is worth visiting ;-)
The norm seems to be living and working in the city unless you're attached to a large megacorp with a fleet of shuttles, or else you end up on Caltrain.
"Driving from my friend's studio 3rd floor walk-up near AT&T Park to Mountain View"
Taking a personal automobile through a metropolis might not be the best option. Caltrain also serves MV and SF.
I agree that SV, just like SD, suffers from having too many bland, incredibly sprawling office parks which are mostly acres of parking with a building sprinkled here and there.
As someone from Dallas who's considering a move next year (not by choice; our state legislature has promised to pass laws next year that will make it effectively illegal for me to continue to live here), I have no interest in ever setting foot in NorCal, but SoCal is on my short list.
I find the Silicon Valley tech industry frightening and the culture associated with it degenerate. I'm not interested in the out-of-control housing costs either. SoCal, on the other hand, reminds me of home far more than most any other part of the country I've looked at. If I were to move to the LA or SD areas, I wouldn't feel too horribly out of place there.
So count me in as one young-ish person (31, but still technically a Millennial) in tech who would rather live in San Diego than Silicon Valley.
If it helps, I prefer to live in the suburbs and detest the idea of living in any kind of downtown.
> As someone from Dallas who's considering a move next year (not by choice; our state legislature has promised to pass laws next year that will make it effectively illegal for me to continue to live here)
I'm transgender, and they've promised to pass bills to make it illegal for trans people to use the bathrooms according to our actual gender. If any of those pass, I won't be able to stay here without becoming a criminal. So I intend to move to a blue state if this happens. My short list is SoCal, Chicagoland, and the Twin Cities.
If I have to move, my first step will be to find remote work (and I'll try to become a remote employee of my current company before I look elsewhere). Once I've secured a job that lets me work anywhere, I can then proceed to look anywhere to live without having to worry about getting a job specifically in the area. I've never lived outside of my hometown before, and I'm not looking forward to having to travel to interview.
Actually, the part of SoCal that interests me the most is the San Gabriel Valley just east of LA, for food-related reasons. Just thinking about the kind of food I'd have access to in Monterey Park or Alhambra makes me salivate.
> I'm not interested in the out-of-control housing costs either.
In that case, I suggest flying right over LA and continuing directly to San Diego or some place even more affordable. LA's real estate market, once you factor in transportation delays and issues with the school system, is out-of-control too.
As a 23 year old software engineer that recently chose to live in SD over SF I find this article kind of funny. It didn't make sense to me to choose a place where i might make more money, but have to spend it all to live. Life can be pretty cheap in SD. I live 20 minutes/15 miles from work, a commute that would take an hour in the bay. I also pay <$700 for the master bedroom in my house. I'm also a 10 min uber to any downtown spot I want. Not much overpriced food here either, and many options if you drive 15 minutes. You may not be working at Google or Apple down here, but that might not be the worst thing.
I don't think people realize that you move to San Diego for the lifestyle, not the great working opportunities. The weather and activities are pretty amazing here.
Haha I totally recognize myself here. I'm a french 25 years old software engineer who had opportunities in SF, NYC and SD. I chose to come in SD 2 years ago and I never regretted my choice! It feels like being in paradise compared to my hometown in france.
Fantastic weather all year, good beer, great food, tons of things to do,..
Rent are pricey but I wanted an nice place to live in a not crowded/safe place (Spectrum in Kearny Mesa) so me and my roommate pay 2300$/month for a 2bd/2bath appartement with gym, pools, ...
I'm 15 minutes away from my workplace in downtown and i love to be able to drive top-down every day (I like to drive).
Sure, I don't work for Google or Apple and don't make $150k+/yr (just 85k) but I don't care!
The lifestyle in SD is what I love and I don't think I'll move from here in the new few years.
Bonus point: I feel like i'm the only young french professinnal (software engineer or not) in the city so I enjoy how easy it is to pick up girl with my accent :D
To upgrade challenging neighborhoods in New York, developers along with the city politicians created spaces for artists with reduced rents for a specific amount of years. By bringing in artists in the neighborhood would become "trendy" and draw more development. Perhaps San Diego can do the same thing with developers?
Tom Wolfe on "artists are usually at the forefront of neighborhood revitalization..."
A relevant story. I worked with a friend here in the Bay Area a while back. One day his father in law got sick, and he was forced to move to San Diego. When he started looking for jobs, they were all offing about 20% less money for the same work, despite the fact that at the time the cost of living was almost identical.
When he asked one of them, "why don't you pay as much as the bay area" he was told, "our weather is better so we pay less".
There's only so much suffering you're willing to take for "better weather".
The same could of course be said for Silicon Valley too.
When I first visited San Francisco for a work trip, I was so underwhelmed about my experience there, don't take me wrong I think it's a great city with a lot going on, but I couldn't help but feel like it was so overhyped. Several friends wouldn't stop talking about how great SF is, and in my mind I always had this silly image of self driving cars, entire streets dedicated to technology and all kinds of futuristic scenery before I visited but instead on my first visit I was greeted by some crackhead spitting on me while riding BART, lots of beggars and homeless people as I got out of the station and walked around, trash in the streets and it looked like just another city. Lots of restaurants and bars though, fantastic food selection.
I could be a bit biased on my view though, as I'm more of a suburb person.
I'd like to visit Palo Alto and San Jose to check it out at some point, I've heard it has a lot to offer too
I got a pretty competitive offer from a San Diego startup about 3 years back. They flew me down, wined & dined & afterwards we talked a bit of technology. They even did a real-estate tour to sort of close the deal.
I turned them down after a lot of thought.
Based on the outcome of that startup now, I was right. But you never know...
There is a fantastic passage in William Goldman's books where he talks about why all successful screenplays have basically been written out of crummy motels in Hollywood Blvd and tiny apartments in theatre district in NYC. Most successful screenwriters like Goldman for example are millionaires and film companies can easily afford to put them up in some exotic hotel in Vail or other foreign locales etc. Why pick crummy hovels to do your best work ?
The same goes for Kurosawa ( Seven Samurai etc.) who did all his best work in some tiny hotel room even though his palatial house was much better furnished. Essentially, there is something called work-culture that happens best in work-cities, and when you think about tech work, the work-cities are basically crammed rows of desks in mountain view, Palo alto, soma SF,....
You don't think of jira tickets and Tahiti in the same breath. And those were the vibes I got out of San Diego - it was so nice and relaxing and I didn't see myself or my other colleagues getting any serious work done. You just felt like kicking back and watching the clouds or going surfing and lying on the beach. It's too holidayish. I would go there for a vacation, but not to actually get work done.
Like it or not, most tech work isn't particularly pleasant, and that matches the crummy efficient silicon valley vibes...rows of laptops, hardly any space, minutes away from pools of urine and filth on Market Street...I mean, it is what it is. I love Silicon Valley and I don't see work moving away from here given the nature of this work-city.
Professors at school used to say the same thing about why the top math journals and papers come out of Minnesota and Chicago and Boston, as opposed to universities in more pleasant climes - because the weather in those places is so awful you have no choice but to stay cooped up in the library working on your papers :)
Speaking as an SD native, and a 25 year old developer, I've definitely felt the urge to move to San Francisco at times, but I could totally see SD becoming a huge hub for the tech industry if given the chance. SD would need some huge transit changes (it would be great if it actually worked), and having companies move downtown would relieve a lot of the hassle of commuting.
The north county areas of SD, where the tech jobs are, feel a lot like Silicon Valley, and I don't think that's a good thing. Leaving Mira Mesa for SV is not a win in my book. SF proper is an amazing place, much like SD, with lots of culture and stuff to do, but unlike SF, SD doesn't have the clout with the tech culture. Personally, I'm always excited when people say they're creating tech startups here, and I hope more people do.
Plus we're always on vacation here :P
EDIT: I agree that most people I meet are not interested in working for Intuit and Qualcomm.
All of the tech jobs are in bland industrial office parks? Protip: Don't literally emulate Silicon Valley by building your tech scene to resemble boring, culture-less suburban Santa Clara County. Don't build it to resemble overpriced, under-serviced urban San Francisco, either. Innovate a better model.
Notwithstanding the authors comments about location, I didn't want the engineers who want to stay in San Diego to miss the opportunity to do so because they were not aware of the great opportunities (companies) that are here. Many of these companies are hiring, and some of the most explosive are downtown:
DOWNTOWN:
MindTouch
Classy
Take Lessons
GoFormz
Underground Elephant
Sweetlabs
ChatMeter
Tap Hunter
Zesty.io
Skysafe
I did a brief contracting stint in SF, and considered relocating up there for work (the pay is indeed much better) but ultimately decided against it. Note that I grew up in the Bay Area.
In SD I pay $2300/month for a 2500 sqft house with a yard and garage, 4 blocks from the ocean. While in SF, I paid this for a single room in a shady neighborhood without a window.
After coming back here, I was struck by how clean it is compared to SF.
For the young people, SD has some of the best nightlife I have experienced (and I've been everywhere throughout California). SF has better food but our culinary scene is getting much better and has improved drastically over the last decade, IMO.
We also have a growing capital scene. Its not SV, but if I were an investor I would hole up here - its nicer, cheaper, and the burn rate is lower. Plus we have some big players here: Rockstar, Sony, Psyonix (Rocket League), Qualcomm, many military contractors, and so forth. Even a bit of history here - FTL (which made Dungeon Master) was located in SD.
There is much more opportunity for a CS new grad in the Bay Area than there is in San Diego. This is true for practically every city when being compared to the Bay Area, right?
As a CS grad, you have a shot at working for Google, Facebook, Apple, etc. and these are regarded as some of the best places to work __in the world__. For the Hacker News crowd I'll add that you might not agree, but that perception is certainly widespread.
The huge opportunity in the Bay Area for them, at this point in their lives, outweighs the benefits of living in San Diego. Google "San Diego vs Bay Area" to see what those are. Cost of living, weather, beaches are probably on the list.
The discussion in the article about Sorrento Valley is ridiculous. It's a tiny area just minutes away from La Jolla and University Towne Centre (UTC). La Jolla/UTC is heavily developed, modern, and has plenty of young people due to being close to UCSD. Don't forget all the non-tech grads go to live somewhere too. Perhaps it is being compared to Silicon Valley because they both have "valley" in the name.
As someone in Tech who has worked both in Sorrento Valley and Downtown as well as places like LaJolla, Point Loma and now remotely from home in Lakeside I can only say that as a developer I preferred my experience working downtown vs anywhere else. Keep in mind this wasn't me the Entrepreneur, this was merely me the software engineer working for someone else, I was living in Fashion Valley at the time and could take the trolley right up to the office across the street from the main train station and it was a great commute. My wife would bring the kids down for lunch and we'd meet up at the water fountain park at City Hall or at the Children's museum. If I had to work late it didn't matter because the trolley ran late into the night and would drop me off right at home. The dev team could walk outside of the office and go to pretty much any restaurant in little Italy or within a short walking distance so we were never limited to mall or fast food and team lunches were the highlight of the week. If you didn't want to go to a restaurant there were always food trucks on some days of the week and the views from the high rises made you feel like the kind of work you were doing was important. As an entrepreneur now having an office downtown is crazy expensive and an unnecessary commute but if you're trying to understand it from the perspective of the workers and the talent themselves, I would always pick a job downtown vs one in Sorrento Valley or LaJolla any day of the week but that's just me and different people have different desires and perspectives. I'm not a beach guy though but I can also see a beach office being a huge talent draw for you as well, I guess it just depends on the personalities of the folks you're trying to draw that's all.
The article cites pay, location and happening as factors, though I also think there just isn't demand for young tech talent in SD. San Diego is where older folks/retired military go to raise families or retire proper as they land relatively cushy positions in the big sectors we do have here (Qualcomm et. al). New grad and junior positions are there yet still too few.
There is startup culture in San Diego, and maybe this is just because I was down south, but tech firms seemed to comprise only a small number of them. Of the ones I had met, they were either in "We're only interested in those with years of proven experience" (albeit they were typically working in advanced areas) or "We just graduated too and can nary afford to pay anyone" phases.
On top of all that my offers were too low to comfortably move out of my family's flat (perhaps I am entitled). Inadvertently, I'm now in the Bay Area.
Take this with a grain of salt. I studied abroad and my network at home was neither expansive nor tech-oriented. I'm also led to believe I couldn't obtain appropriate security clearance so military contractual work was a no-go.
As a San Diego resident for the last 12 years, I have to agree it is not a good place for a tech worker. Salaries are quite low compared to other areas, companies aren't very many or particular successful, and housing costs in the good school districts are high (at least $600k for a SFR). Public transit is awful, and car traffic is quite bad as well.
If I didn't have family here, I'd definitely move.
I live in SF. I have all the complaints and compliments for the city that all of us do. But if someone in SD decides not to move because Sorrento Valley is too far from downtown, they're going to be wildly disappointed. SF is small, but is such a pain to move around in that you end up spending 90% of your time within walking distance of home and work.
Really? My experience is that quite a few of the students I know who graduated in CS are underemployed in San Diego and you couldn't blast them out with a nuclear bomb. Most of them would benefit from a couple of year stint somewhere else and then coming back.
And, why would they want to live in downtown San Diego? It's a terribly boring place. SD is not NYC or Chicago. A lot of young people are into the beach, and there are mixed ethnic areas that are far more interesting than downtown. Although, to be fair, the real problem is that there is nowhere cheap for the artists who make an area interesting to live. Furthermore, my personal assessment is that the downtown areas in most tech cities aren't really that "interesting" unless you have a remarkable amount of money to spend--which young people don't.
On top of all that, San Diego salaries ALWAYS lag. I call it the Sun Tax, but you can generally go to the Bay Area for a 50+% (or more) bump. San Diego isn't THAT much cheaper than the Bay Area.
In my opinion this article and others I've seen like it seem have everything backwards. For new graduates I wouldn't recommend living in downtown San Diego, at least not right now. It's (relatively) expensive and can get old real quick.
Instead I'd suggest trying to find a job downtown or elsewhere and live somewhere more exciting/fun like the beach (Mission/Pacific) or any of the neighborhoods surrounding downtown (North/South Park). The rent is generally <$1000/month, the commute from any of these places is <20 minutes, and there's always something to do.
Also, haven't seen the University of San Diego (USD) mentioned in any of the other comments, but they just opened a standalone engineering school last year, so I'm sure that will also start to attract a lot more talent to the area (biased USD alumnus here).
After doing a 4 year stint in Orange County and just moving back last year, I'd say things are looking better than ever for SD, not worse. I'm glad I moved back and excited to see where it goes from here.
Would love to move out to San Diego since I have close relatives in that area. I have job prospects in the LA and Bay areas. Took a few (phone / Skype / Google Hangouts) interviews with a couple employers in those areas and all of them went very well. I am on the east coast (glad they settled for remote interviews so far) and both the companies want me to fly out to meet now.
Thought I'd post here in case anyone's hiring. I'd rather live in / near San Diego and be close to family. Love it there.
I work remotely and there's the possibility for me to move while staying at my current job. I am looking to change jobs if I get a better offer since my cost of living will increase when I move to San Diego.
If you have any comments or are looking for experienced (7+ yrs) software engineers please get in touch. Using a throaway account because I don't want my employer to know that I'm looking for a job.
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